Adriel wrote:
Christians believe baptism is a means of grace...

In a church gathering, God usually ministers his grace through preaching and teaching.

At home, God ministers his grace as his people read their Bible or pray.

At a funeral, God might minister his grace to the bereaved during the service.

'Tis grace has brought me safe thus far
And grace shall lead me home

Amazing grace. Ignore the means and never get any.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And so on.

B. McCausland wrote:
This is becoming as the endless argument..

Of course you can endlessly go on debating..

NeedHim wrote:

"As Jesus wasn’t knocking on his heart door saying let me in!"

v5 what does "worketh not" mean? It means that works are not involved in all of this. The keeping of commandments have nothing to do with justification.

v5 what does "believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly" mean? It means that when an ungodly man truly believes, God "justifies" him, that is, declares him righteous.

v5 what does "his faith is counted for righteousness" mean? It means that righteousness is *counted*, or *credited to* or *imputed to* the ungodly man who believes.

v9 are we any better? No, all are under sin.

v10 is anyone righteous at all? No, there is none righteous, no, not one.

v11 does anyone understand, or seek after God? No, there is no-one who understands, none who seek after God.

v12 is there anyone who does good? No, there is none who do good, no, not one.

How then can a man who is *under sin*, who is *not righteous*, who *does not understand* nor does he *seek after God*, who does *nothing that is good*, how can he possibly be saved?

Mark 10:27 says it is impossible with man, but not with God.

If a sinner is ungodly, and he will not seek after God, how can that man possibly get saved?

Oh, by the grace of God. This is undeserved by definition. It is by grace that God saves, through faith...

This doctrine of *imputed righteousness* is most wonderful to the true believer.

Does it involve a man's own righteousness? No, it does not affect his righteousness at all. But don't forget, he has no righteousness anyway: "There are none that doeth good, no, not one."

So the man is a sinner, has no righteousness, and is perishing in his sins. What does such a man need? He needs to have righteousness *credited* to him, and God is willing to *credit* the man with a perfect righteousness, the righteousness of his Son; and he is willing to do this by *grace* and it arrives through *faith*.

"I never said my claim of what Calvinism teaches is biblically supported. I don’t believe it is and that’s why I don’t believe what they teach. It is taught that the reason why “Bobby� believes and “Johnny� doesn’t is because “Bobby� is more righteous. Bobby is saved because he had faith and Johnny didn’t, so Bobby is saved by what he did. The caveat to this is that God first made Bobby righteous enough to believe, so all of the glory goes to God. However, that doesn’t really erase the fact that Bobby was saved because of something he did, which was to believe and we all know if you do something which results in your salvation, it is a work."

Folks will have to make their own minds up whether this is a genuine ignorance or a feigned troll-like ignorance.

Frank wrote:
Good afternoon Pilgrim!
Thanks for your comments and thoughts on this subject. I don't normally write on this, but the terror the unsaved will experience when they see their fate is something that is incomprehensible.
Proverbs 29:1 He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.

I will praise God daily for his most remarkable and amazing grace, and for his deliverance from the wrath to come.

Frank wrote:
...
But, unless they repent and trust solely in the mercy and sacrifice of our Lord and Savior, they are going to experience the wrath of almighty God.
Psalms 14:14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

The Quiet Christian wrote:
So good to see you back, John UK.
The same thing you are witnessing in Wales is happening in the US via the "megachurch movement." I'm sure some are better than others on a relative scale, but there is no real corporate worship and can have very iffy, therapeutic preaching. Many have a tie to the charismatic movement as well so it seems.

Ephesians 1:11-14 KJV
(11)  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
(12)  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
(13)  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(14)  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Dr. Tim wrote:
In America, John, if you “say� you’re a Christian, you’re a Christian. (I’m sure it’s the same in the UK.) That’s why we have so many “Christians� like Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton actively promoting sodomy and infanticide. That’s why we have a “Christian� queer running for president. That’s why we have “Christians� like Jim who abhor Christian involvement in politics and yet spend all their time talking about politics. That’s why we have “Christians� by the millions who will welcome the Antichrist with open arms. And the reason we have so many “Christians� like that is because so many of our churches have a come-as-you-are, leave-as-you-were mentality. Do you hear that retching sound? That’s Jesus spewing them out of His mouth.

Paul obviously is calling the believers in Galatia foolish. Why? Because although they had been soundly converted through the preaching of the cross, some folks had come in and were beginning to add other things to "faith" as a means of justification; namely, the keeping of the commandments.

Paul remonstrates with them, asking them if they received the Holy Ghost through "faith" or through the "works of the law". Obviously he expects them to answer, "Through faith."

He then tells them, "Look, you began your Christian life by faith in Jesus Christ, and are justified. Do you now imagine you can be sanctified by keeping the law?"

Youth in Asia wrote:
And so they repented, called on the name of the Lord, received His word, got saved, and got Baptised. You cannot know from this verse when they received the Holy Spirit, was it after repentance, or after their baptism?

Acts 2:38 KJV
(38)  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye **shall** receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Seems plain enough.

But you are worried that water baptism seemingly is required to receive the "gift of the Holy Ghost"? Understandable, if that was the only text in the Bible.

As I said to J4, the working of the Holy Ghost is very complex, and there is a prior work of the Spirit in the mind before ever the sinner believed and was saved. The Spirit of God was involved with Peter the apostle before ever he was baptised with the Spirit at Pentecost. How did Peter make that saving confession concerning Christ, without a revelation by the Spirit? Matt 16:15-17. He could not. Nobody can.

Youth in Asia wrote:
How does the new testament say believers get the Holy Spirit?

Not many realise that we died in Adam, and we also died in Christ, before being raised to newness of life. It's all about federal headship.

Frank wrote:
Hey brother John UK!
Baptism is a sacrament that simply publicly shows what has been done in your heart and soul. It cannot save in and of itself, but as you said just about everyone would say it is not optional in the obedience sense. There are some who become saved that don’t have the opportunity to be baptized, but if opportunity is there it is mandated.

Of course, circumcision was even more inconvenient, not to say painful, but who are we mere mortals to argue with our Creator?

I agree with you, that baptism does not save. And I also agree with you that it does serve to show physically and pictorially that which has happened spiritually in a sinner's life, when he came to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

JG on Colossians 2:12 says, "....but that they and all their sins were buried with Christ, of which their baptism in water was a lively representation."

Marty McD wrote:
Thanks John

______________

J4, there is no point in having further convo on your heterodoxy concerning baptism. We have gone into it many times before, and you are still in 'error', are 'wrong', and hold an 'unbiblical' position. You are a classic case of heterodoxy and cannot prove your position from the Bible. Rather you simplify the work of the Holy Spirit in a sinner's life, when it is really quite complex, beginning as it does in eternity, when God the Father chose certain sinners unto salvation, working in their hearts in due time when they came into the world, involving conviction, regeneration, enlightenment, indwelling, sealing, assuring, delivering faith and other spiritual gifts, empowering, and on and on and on. Sure, this is the real deal, and God is exalted in this work of his Spirit; it is salvation which comes from him.