Unprofitable Servant wrote:
John doesn't show that He wasn't using symbolism at the Passover meal with His disciples. Thanks

1 Corinthians 10:16 KJV
(16)  The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

koinonia = communion = fellowship

1 Corinthians 10:16 GNB
(16)  The cup we use in the Lord's Supper and for which we give thanks to God: when we drink from it, we are sharing in the blood of Christ. And the bread we break: when we eat it, we are sharing in the body of Christ.

When we bless the cup at the Lord’s Table, aren’t we sharing in the blood of Christ? And when we break the bread, aren’t we sharing in the body of Christ? NLT

Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? NIV

The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? ESV

Galatians 5:22-23 KJV
(22)  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
(23)  Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Unprofitable Servant wrote:
John none of those passages negate my point

John 17:4 KJV
(4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Jesus says he has finished the work which God the Father gave him to do. This was before he had finished the work which God the Father had given him to do.

Jesus instituted the new covenant in his blood before even the crucifixion took place. "Drink ye all of it, this is the new covenant in my blood." And "do this in remembrance of me." Remembrance of what, exactly? It had not happened yet. A moment before, they were still living in the old covenant, celebrating passover.

Are not these things so?

Mike wrote:
Might be a good idea. And when the pastor is jailed, the elders need step up. And when the elders are jailed, lay teachers step up. No point in letting it be easy for the adversary's helpers. Whole armor time.

Michael Hranek wrote:
Brother John
Let me speak a little "Prophetically"
Churches need to be prepared for persecution

The wheat and tares are almost indistinguishable from each other these days. But praise God for the little remnant who remain true to Jesus and will not compromise. The love of God is very precious to them, and the grace and mercy of God constrains them.

Unprofitable Servant wrote:
You stop short
He did not say about His body, which will be broken or will be given , He said which is broken or is given. He did not say My blood which will be shed, but My blood which is shed .

John 17:4 KJV
(4)  I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

The work which God gave Jesus to do was not finished until Jesus cried out on the cross, "Finished!"

Similarly, even Paul the apostle claimed his work was finished before time.

2 Timothy 4:7 KJV
(7)  I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

Recommended reading: the following verse in context:

Mike wrote:
1. My bad, John. Didnt realize the requirement of never pointing out a truth unless all my own theological ducks are lined up perfectly. I'm afraid I might have to continue, though, until everyone else restrains for the same reason as well. But then I think it would be get real quiet around here.

2. Indeed the whole man was bought and paid for on the cross. And because of the resurrection, we have life. And surely when we 'do this in remembrance of me' we should do it with the discernment that comes from humility and gratitude. Else we might expect a discipline we don't want.

1. What you were saying about Martin Luther was, "Oh, he was wrong on purgatory, therefore I won't listen to what he has to say about the communion."

If I took that to its conclusion, I would not listen to another Christian, ever. For who has his doctrines perfect? No-one, except the self-deceived.

Mike wrote:
Martin Luther also believed in Purgatory.
John, believers are made to partake of his body and blood by faith in that which is called salvation. His indwelt spirit. No further partaking of that which is already had can be wrought by the Lord's Supper, which is a remembrance. How can more Jesus be gained by it? "with all his benefits."? Communion is to bring to mind gratitude for what he has already done, not to bring us more benefits, as reward If we be properly worthy.

Christians of today are so shallow in their thinking, and that includes me. But I am not staying in that rut but going on for higher and deeper.

1 Corinthians 11:29-30 KJV
(29)  For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
(30)  For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

When was the last time you heard a sermon entitled: "Sicknesses and Deaths through Not Discerning the Lord's Body"?

"Q. What is the Lord's supper? A. The Lord's supper is a sacrament, wherein, by giving and receiving bread and wine according to Christ's appointment, his death is showed forth; and the worthy receivers are, not after a corporal and carnal manner, but by faith, made partakers of his body and blood, with all his benefits, to their spiritual nourishment and growth in grace."

If folks don't know what "not after a corporal and carnal manner" means, you've only got to ask.

1689 Baptist Confession - Lord's Supper

Paragraph 7. "Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, do then also inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually receive, and feed upon Christ crucified, and all the benefits of his death; the body and blood of Christ being then not corporally or carnally, but spiritually present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses."

Frank wrote:
Brother John!
I got the below from the internet:
"Presbyterians believe that the presence of Jesus Christ is very real in Holy Communion, but that the bread and wine are just symbols of the spiritual ideas that communion represents."
Although I have never identified myself with Presbyterians, I simply believe the above. I do not eat the literal body of Christ and I do not drink the literal blood of Christ.

Queen Elizabeth I of England rejected the transubstantiation of the RCC, but retained the real presence of Jesus Christ in bread and wine, calling it a mystery. Martin Luther was of similar ilk previously.

Please read again the Presbies own take, noting the need for faith to benefit from the communion supper.

Frank wrote:
Cut and paste!
Jesus must have been speaking metaphorically when He referred to the “bread” literally being His body and the “wine” literally being His blood. When Jesus said “this is My body”, He was still with them in the flesh; therefore it could not have been His literal body. He could have said that after He was resurrected it would become His body, but He didn’t.

The passover Jesus was celebrating with his disciples occurred a long time ago. They were remembering the great victory wrought by God when he set his people free from slavery in Egypt.

When I was a young Christian, I learned that there were two basic positions: transubstantiation (which was a Roman Catholic doctrine, the term first being used around the 11th century), and purely symbolic (which was held by all Christians).

This simplistic approach is just not good enough, as research will show. For example, let us take the Presbies approach:

The Westminster Shorter Catechism:

Q. What is the Lord's supper? A. The Lord's supper is a sacrament, wherein, by giving and receiving bread and wine according to Christ's appointment, his death is showed forth; and the worthy receivers are, not after a corporal and carnal manner, but by faith, made partakers of his body and blood, with all his benefits, to their spiritual nourishment and growth in grace.

Note, "made partakers of his body and blood".

Now the greek word koinonia means fellowship, or communion, as in:

1 Corinthians 10:16 KJV
(16)  The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

Mike wrote:
True, we are indeed becoming more like civilized bleeding Europe as time goes on, John. Too many here pushing in that direction. One world views and all that. The results show.

Frank wrote:
Yes brother, it is hard for me to imagine a world like this, but it will happen.
Mark 13:12 “Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.”
Luke 21:11 - And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Matthew Chapter 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Come quickly Lord Jesus, come quickly.

Sure, I know all about it. You've got Black Lives Matter and 'you've' got American Pride.

James Thomas wrote:
...
Concerning Psalm 2...

Mike wrote:
I wonder of what need this is, as the grocery is open and the shelves are nearly full. The guv is sending printing press money, and there is no excuse for not building up the larder, a bit at a time, and that without the hoarding we have seen. There is something about going to the ant, and not being a sluggard. Ordinary common sense as was done throughout history, to harvest in season so as to provide out of season. Christians in particular have no excuse, and should be in consideration of their neighbors, who may have need in hard times.

Unprofitable Servant wrote:
If the scenario you painted was in any way accurate it would have happened long ago and been common throughout our history.

B. McCausland wrote:
Brother, never lose sight that the full stops come set by the hand above, though the common folk might have to go through seasons as being "sheep unto the slaughter"
"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
Let the Lord be our strength

B. McCausland wrote:
Many a time in history authentic believers pondered in the same lines you write here, yet let's remember that evil and jugdements often come in 'tides' or waves that come and go.

With stockpiling of weaponry and ammunition in America, and with the economy and jobs severely affected by lockdown procedures, with this leading to near starvation for some families, and supposing the pandemic cannot be controlled any other way, and the guv not willing to let it run and do its worst, thusly the austerity continues until some folks just cannot cope any more, and they see stealing food as the only way of survival, at gunpoint of course, maybe stealing money, cars etc., maybe forming into groups or gangs, living in forests like Robin Hood, robbing the rich so that their families can eat, and so on and so forth.