DJC49 wrote: Neither YOU nor anyone else has YET to argue successfully against my contention that: NATURAL, sinful, fallen, "flesh and blood" men who are supposedly BORN INTO the Kingdom of God during the so-called Dispy literal Millennial Kingdom have absolutely NO RIGHT to be inheriting such a kingdom according to Biblical teaching: "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood can NOT inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 15:50) Well guess what. These newborns of the Dispy Millennial Kingdom are "flesh and blood" by YOUR OWN DEFINITION and they are indeed "inheriting the kingdom" -- which is AGAINST the clear teaching of SCRIPTURE! kindly address my point concerning these newborns of the Dispy Mill..
Remember me asking you a question about how we would be a KINGDOM OF PRIESTS which Revelation says that we will be? You said that we are a Kingdom of priests NOW through our intercessions for others, etc., and I agree.
But...just suppose that there is a millenial reign of Christ on earth where babies will be birthed into the kingdom. Perhaps, this is where that verse is REALLY meaningful. Flesh and blood cannot INHERIT the Kingdom of God. Those children born would not necessarily be inheriting the Kingdom - just living in it.
John UK wrote: Good evening Candle Lit Yes I was very relieved to hear that the ol' turnip was okay; it will be good to hear from him again, hopefully soon. He's a real member of the family now, isn't he? Sold another painting today at market, and tomorrow I'm being very brave and going to a place called Pendine, very sandy beach. The market team has a special stall there, and I am taking my box easel to do some plein air painting for the first time, very exciting. The market manager said it would draw a crowd, coz folks don't normaly get to see an artist actually painting. Scary, but I'll try anything once, and might even sell pictures as I'm painting them. So I'm going to pack a big picnic lunch, all my gear, and frames, glass, the lot. I got my site on the web now, but still needs lots of work, should be ready in couple more weeks. That's exciting!
I can rejoice with you, John, at the good news. Sounds like you are off to a good start with sales for the season.
Tomorrow, should be a lovely day for you. It sounds like a pretty setting for painting and interacting with the people at the beach.
May the Lord bless you with sunny weather, and may it be a blessed day! And, enjoy your picnic lunch!
I've been meaning to thank you for letting us know that you had word of *Charles* being spotted at church, and that he looked well.
I wonder if he has been spending time in studying the topic that is now being discussed. Perhaps he will grace us with his presence on these boards, again and soon. He can share with us what he has learned.
Jim Lincoln wrote: Candle lit, we should at the best of our ability to have our doctrine correct, because that what's God wants of us. We have a Catholic, or whatever He is on here that says that if people believe a few Catholic ideas and ignore the rest then they are Christian. This of absolutely untrue, he happens to be pushing [URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=5504151546]]]The Doctrine of Apostates[/URL]. The Reformers made it very clear if you didn't believe in [only scripture, only Christ, only Grace, only Faith, and to God alone be Glory.]
I agree that doctrine is important, and especially for the one teaching God's Word, but you have to admit that there are children who are trusting in Jesus and are "saved," yet, they could not share with you the doctrines of the faith. There are also people who are mentally challenged who truly know the Saviour.
Salvation is simple faith in Jesus, and that will be evidenced by the fruit of the Spirit. Prophecy and its interpretation can be debated.
Anyone, born of the spirit, is a child of God. And, YES, there are some even in the Catholic church. I've known a few.
DJC49 wrote: B] Christians will indeed have a glorified body after their resurrection just as does Jesus. It will be perfect, always healthy, it will never age or be the worse for wear, it might be fit for space/time travel (?), it will be in harmony with EVERYTHING else in His glorious eternal Kingdom. I have only one question about it which I can NOT post here!
I wonder if your question has to do with the digestive tract???
DJ, I appreciate that you take seriously the Word of God, and you are really good at exposing the weak points in our arguments. That is good! We need to be challenged. We need to be able to "rightly divide" God's Word. So, I appreciate your analytical abilities that come into play as we discuss topics, especially this one.
While this subject is fascinating, we don't have to have it all figured out, now. But, our trust must be in the LORD, now - that He saves us from all our sins.
While doctrine is important, it won't take us to heaven. It is the person of the Lord Jesus Christ who will see us safely home, and His plan will be accomplished in our lives.
It matters not to me WHERE I am, as long as I am with HIM. I do look forward to being in a body that does not sin.
DJC49 wrote: 1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God" Okay ... I've read the verse and taken it in its LITERAL sense as I'm supposed to. I believe what it says to be absolute TRUTH. It says plainly -- and literally -- that flesh and blood can NOT inherit the kingdom of God. Seems simple enough. Now, ... could ANY one of my pre-trib/pre-mill Dispy brethren PLEASE explain to me how there could possibly be NATURAL (albeit "saved") "flesh and blood" men entering into and inheriting the Millennial Kingdom after Christ's Coming in Rev 19-20? Furthermore, how is it that natural, sinful, flesh & blood men are BORN INTO the Millennial Kingdom of God? (Both Jew and GENTILE) What right have they to the Kingdom? What right have they to INHERIT the kingdom of God since they are ALL only "flesh and blood?"
DJ, you said, and I agree that, born again believers, are in the kingdom, NOW, in a spiritual sense, but not as it will be. We still have the same flesh and blood house, if you will, for our spirit. Think about that in regards to your question above.
Would you tell us about Jesus' resurrected body? And, would you agree that we will have a resurrected body of like nature?
DJC49 wrote: "MY PROBLEM" is simpler than that, *Candle Lit* "MY PROBLEM" is that I have a REAL hard time taking seriously and entering into debate with someone who doesn't know the difference between the Abrahamic Covenant [unilateral & irrevocable] and the Mosaic Covenant [bilateral & conditional]. On top of that, she forgets that I was talking EXCLUSIVELY about -- and responding to -- the question concerning the blessings & cursings of Deuteronomy 28 [again, bilateral, conditional, and for national Israel ONLY]! ........ But I'll let that slide. Now, ... Anyone who conflates the two OT Covenants (Abrahamic & Mosaic) has VERY SERIOUS interpretive problems! Furthermore, the promises made to Abraham were to him and his ***seed*** NOT seeds! Read Galatians 3 & 4 ... and buy a few vowels. _____ Important verse of Scripture: "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" [Romans 9:6]
So, you are saying that these are mutually exclusive covenants.
National Israel fails.
Spiritual Israel wins.
And, the reason God (Who knew they would fail) would give these conditions to Israel in the first place would be?
Your last post FILLS my heart with JOY at the thought of the LORD's IMMINENT RETURN! Thank you for being a source of encouragement!
The Amill position leaves toooooo many unfulfilled prophecies that have to be completed BEFORE the LORD's RETURN - THUS, it takes away the JOY and the COMFORT for Believers for being IMMEDIATELY delivered out of this world and into HIS PRESENCE.
NOW, I shall go out and run my errands with a spring in my step and rejoicing in my heart, that at ANY MOMENT, I may be in the presence of the LORD with all HIS SAINTS.
P.S. I think if you keep the "tone" of your last post, your posts won't be removed. Let's keep them on the board. -----------
Whew, DJ, I just read your post below, quickly, and I must say, a quick read did not enlighten me. I know it must be hard for you to deal with the plebs of the boards, given your intellect, but thank you for condescending. I'll read it again upon my return, and give some thought to what you say.
amill2 wrote: Zechariah 12:10 has already been fulfilled: Joh 19:34-37 But one of the soldiers with a spear PIERCED HIS SIDE, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 36) For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. (37) And again another scripture saith, THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.
The problem with your conclusion is that WHEN Jesus was crucified, no one mourned - everyone rejoiced - the Jewish religious leaders were ecstatic - the Romans were pleased to satisfy the wishes of the Jews to keep down rioting. Only the disciples were sad, but only for 3 days - then, there was EXHILARATION - HE AROSE - and manifested Himself only to HIS OWN - Excitement filled the city - the Jewish leaders wanted to quiet the talk that Jesus was ALIVE, so they put out a false account of His body having been stolen, which exists to this day. And, of course, the Romans couldn't let it be known that they had failed to secure His tomb. SO, there was no NATIONAL mourning when Jesus was crucified! Zechariah speaks of National Israel mourning! Read the whole book of Zechariah. You can't dismiss the obvious!
DJC49 wrote: The catalog of literal, TEMPORAL blessings & curses found in Deuteronomy were all conditional.
Your problem, DJ, is that that you take the Bible, verse by verse, rather than taking it as a whole. You miss the big picture.
God's covenental promises to national Israel were irrevocable because they were with Abraham, NOT the people, and the covenant that God made was with Himself.
Just as the "whole world" at one time was kept alive in Noah's ark and because of Noah's righteousness, at another time Israel was delivered out of Egypt by Moses, even so, the "world" is being saved through the ultimate Redeemer, Jesus Christ. However, God does not renege on His promises, and He made a SLEW of them to national Israel. You can't dismiss them or spiritualize them away.
If you would read through the OT without your preconceived ideas, you would see that God says He will NEVER forsake Israel, not once, but repeatedly, even though He allows her to be put aside for a while. All indications are that He will YET manifests His Glory in a marvellous way when He reveals Himself as the Messiah Who came but was rejected. "And, they will look upon me whom they have PIERCED and will mourn as one mourns over a lost son." See Zechariah 12:10
Is there any question that the same Creator of man, also created the animal kingdom, and that His fingerprint is on ALL of creation?
Animals do not sin, but some do know "right from wrong." Dog owners who have trained their pets, know that their pets show shame when they have misbehaved.
Also, dogs have shown remarkable heroism in rescuing a person in danger. So, they "think."
Other animals, mourn the death of one of their kind, with an almost human like sadness - the gorilla is an example, also elephants.
Certainly, there is an agenda behind the group wanting to link the moral code of humans to animals, but that doesn't mean Christians have to reject that God has built-in to the animal kingdom qualities that are quite awe-inspiring.
Did anyone see the recent case of a mother dog and her offspring crossing a busy street in New York? - the mother was "downed" by a vehicle, and her son circled around her and stopped traffic until she could be helped. Now that required a certain measure of thinking that he probably had not received any training for.
So, NO, animals aren't sinners rebelling against God, but they do have a sense of "right and wrong" and contrary to what some say, they "think."
DJC49 wrote: That would be good enough for me, too, *Candle Lit* You just will NOT find it said that: "Christ will reign ON EARTH for a 1000 years." Rather: (v4) "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" [NO "on earth"] (v6) "but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." [NO "on earth"] When Christ returns at His 2nd Advent, He will come in glory for FINAL JUDGEMENT.. Immediately after the Final Judgement, there will be the Restoration of ALL Things; the creation of the NEW heavens and a NEW earth; the Eternal state.
I missed yesterday's posts, so I need to catch up - BUT, your post resonates as being truthful. Actually, I would like for the coming of the Lord to be as you describe.
Justice seems served with such finality. And, my heart's cry is for the Kingdom of God to come. The sooner, the better.
I am not a pre-trib/dispensationlist. I just don't know how to reconcile OT prophecies toward a national Israel being applied to the Church. _____
Question: How will we be priests in God's Kingdom? Priests are mediators. This has puzzled me for a long time.
Alan H wrote: Candle Lit, As this discussion has progressed, I never did get the impression that you were anything other than Dispensational in your eschatology. If you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, which I believe you do, it would be very difficult for you to deny the 1000 year reign of Christ, which is so closely related to that scheme of things. I never felt like you really were willing to avail yourself of DJC49's arguments... I have a very hard time agreeing with DJC49 on much of anything, but there's no question in my mind that he is very intelligent. In this particular case, I think his arguments are irrefutable, even as John UK said. I am compelled to agree with him. Don't be so quick to brush aside what he has said without study and prayer.
Hope you had a blessed Sabbath!
As the years pass, and as I continue to hear the arguments for both sides of this issue, I am less willing to align myself with either camp.
What I am willing to say is that the Bible says "this" and leave it at that -
It is when we try to interpret what "a thousand year reign of Christ on earth" means that we have a problem.
So, the Bible says, "there will be a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth."
John UK wrote: Good afternoon Candle Lit The city of Ninevah never did see the wrath of God displayed. When Jonah finally arrived in Ninevah, he did a most remarkable thing: The city was three days walk from end to end, and Jonah walked a day and a half before stopping to preach. But his simple preaching had a dynamic effect, and God worked miracles in the hearts of many. This was an invisible work of the Spirit which brought repentance. In the book of Revelation, it is recorded that God's actual judgments came upon men in great degree, with much suffering and trials, but men 'still did not repent'.
That comment in Revelation that is repeated over and over is most remarkable, isn't it John? "And they repented not." AS the plagues of Rev. are visited upon men, they blaspheme God, and apart from the softening work of the Holy Spirit, mens hearts are hardened.
And, I had forgotten about what Jesus said about the "men of Nineveh rising up in judgment with [the generation that He was speaking to] and condemning them because they repented at the preaching of Jonah and indeed one greater than Jonah [Jesus] was speaking to them.
You bring clarity to my thinking.
p.s. God spared that gen. of Nineveh, but later destroyed?
But something strange happens. Something strange happens to the LAST generation of men in the Millennium. After hearing ALL about the things in Scripture, after living under such glorious conditions in the Millennium, after SEEING that ALL things had been fulfilled according to pre-trib/pre-mill Dispyism, after KNOWING EXACTLY what is predicted to happen at the END of 1000 years since Christ's coming to Jerusalem, this LAST generation of billions now turns in rebellion while reading Rev 20:7-9 in their Scofield Reference Bibles!!! How absurd!
It would have been absurd to think about the first rebellion in the Garden of Eden where no sin had EVER taken place, so your reasoning just isn't convincing. I side with GK's argument. Thumbs up to you both for bringing out the fine points of each camp. No more interruptions, for a while.
In a previous exchange, you said that the first resurrection was spiritual (the new birth). So, why do you say that there is only "one resurrection" if you also say there is a bodily resurrection? Would that not make for 2 resurrections?
Also, whenever you talk about the 1000 years, you use your own logic to dismiss this instead of dealing with the Scripture. This is uncharacteristic of your reasoning on these boards. Whenever the 1000 years is mentioned, either you or *pew view* pose a question from man's view - "why would God need an extra 1000 yrs..." Of course, God doesn't need an extra 1000 yrs to perfect what was imperfect, but He uses time and means to achieve His purposes, and that may involve prophecy unfolding and eyes being opened because of the validation.
God's ways are not our ways, nor does He think like us. OTOH, He says that He does nothing that He does not reveal to His prophets. Prophecy has always been a means of validation of Who God Is! You know the thing that sticks out in Ezekiel? God says, "that they may know that I am the Lord." This saying is repeated over and over again as God reveals Himself to people in that prophetic book. And, God is long-suffering. If He doesn't judge quickly, it is because of that attribute.