DJC49 wrote: There is absolutely NO WAY that I can adequately flesh out my new understanding of the Salvation Event here on this forum! We need to see the connection between the Resurrection and the "new birth." We can see this ONLY if we understand our identity IN CHRIST, our vital UNION with Him in BOTH His death & resurrection. These things didn't JUST happen in history, but TO US actually.
This makes my day, DJC.
Your posts from yesterday reflected a LOVE for God's Word, and you seemed to join in Paul's excitement as you communicated those verses in Romans and Ephesians 1. I sensed a change. You were "rhapsodic."
Having just read our brother Charles' post, I think he needs your discipleship. He is being drawn into an argument that isn't worthy of his attention. He is new in the faith.
prince charles wrote: CLT. I fear Gods chastisement because its hard to take and i know that He will teach hard lessons to His elect if they are not attentive and continue in error.
You know, Prince Charles, your Royal family has corgis, and we have had retrievers.
I gave our golden to my husband for his birthday. That golden lived 10 yrs. and never knew a day of fear or intimidation, even if we were displeased with him. He completely trusted us, because we had only shown him love and kindness even though we tried to discipline him.
OTOH, we adopted a black lab. She had been abused, and though we treated her with the utmost kindness, if we even raised our voices in command, she cowered. It was a long time before she even wagged her tail.
Two dogs, different backgrounds, same master(s).
So, what's my point?
Get to know the Master, and you'll NEVER fear Him. You'll melt with love in the presence of HIS love.
John UK wrote: one thought concerning fear, .. In my youth I used to frequent a drag racing strip to watch the big pro fuel dragsters charge up a quarter mile course from a standing start in about six seconds. Camping was permitted quite close to the pits, where all the cars were. From time to time, a dragster would be wheeled out to a rolling road, where it could be fired up and checked for good running before the race itself. Now.. These big V8 engine monsters, running on a powerful fuel, with no silencer and short stubby exhaust pipes, would suddenly fire up with flames pouring out of the exhausts, with a great roar of the engine (which hurt the ears), accompanied by shaking and causing the very earth to tremble. It was always exciting but incredibly scary, because of being NEAR to SO MUCH POWER. So... If any Christian comes near to God in an experimental way, they will be both joyful and fearful together.
Now, that's a "powerfully graphic" description!
"Joyful and fearful together" when one meets God in an experiential way is so descriptive of the early church and recorded in Acts. Your post from yesterday @ 2:49 p.m. addressed this so well! God moved powerfully among and through His people. There was joy and fear at the same time.
John UK wrote: It seems to me that the purpose of God is to fill us with his Spirit, and then we are to live out our life yielded to God, denying self, and bringing forth - not our own fruits - but the fruit of the Spirit of God. If fear was a part of that, it would appear in the list in Gal 5.
Well said, John. I will remember that!
Thanks for both your correction when I am wrong, and your validation when I am right. It is good to receive both. "Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." So, I am sharpened!
John UK wrote: When the Spirit comes, and the word is preached being attended by the Spirit, he does his work of conviction in the heart.... This conviction produces the fear of which you mentioned, and this in turn produces the heart cry: "What must we do?" There are some here who have never experienced fear produced by the Spirit, and I feel sorry for them.
I experienced conviction so intensely from an early age that I thought EVERYONE did, but not so. It is definitely a gift of God. So, when I pray for someone's salvation, I also pray for that conviction that leads to repentance (godly sorrow) that leads to salvation.
Isaiah 12:1,2 describes the relationship before salvation and then after salvation. Before salvation, there is the anger of God toward sin. This produces fear. But, after salvation there is joy, not fear.
"And in that day thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me. Behold God is my salvation; I will trust, and NOT be AFRAID; for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation."
vs. 3 "Therefore with JOY shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation."
Since my last posts to both of you were regarding "fear of the Lord", I've been thinking on what that means.
Unbelievers should fear the judgment of God for He can send both body and soul to hell. It is the Holiness of God that repels ungodly men.
Believers, OTOH, have the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit within us is God in us. We are being newly made in His Image, through the sanctification of the Spirit.
Now what should we fear as Believers? Grieving the Holy Spirit through our sin. Discrediting our testimony. Losing our privilege to lead in the Church (if one is a man). Leading others astray. Being deceived. Losing our joy.
But, we will NOT lose our salvation, and we will NEVER experience either the judgment or wrath of God.
As a Christian, there was a single incidence where for the first time I knew what it was like NOT to know the presence of the Lord. It was like I imagine hell to be - no joy, dark, void, lonely, awful nothingness. And, it was because of sin in my life. I never want to experience that again, and I think the Lord withdrew His presence to show me the awfulness of it. His Goodness and His Mercy was with me through all this leading me to repentance, and He restored me to joy.
I wanted to include your post of 5/2/09 at 7:50 p.m., but that would not allow me any space to reply, so please reference when reading my reply.
I am not saying that Believers should not not have a "fear" of the Lord. What I am saying is that we do not fear His judgment to eternal hell. Yes, we will be chastised, but that is only evidence of His love, and is not the same as the fear that a Holy God produces in an ungodly person when they are confronted with Him. Did the disciples run in fear when Jesus appeared to them on the Mt. of transfiguration? No, they were in awe.
Yes, if we are His, He will chastise us, but like a child with a loving parent - that child does not worry every day if the parent is going to "whack" him.
David said, "It is good for me that I have been afflicted: that I might learn thy statutes." Psalms 119:71 Those chastisements are designed to restore us to Him.
I don't fear God, so much as I love Him, because He loved me, first. I know Who He is, and who I am in Him, and I know that He is "for" me - He chose me, Christ died for me, and He is going to get me home. I trust Him.
I sooooo agree with you concerning this buddy kind of relationship that is presented, and I hate it. We are not too far apart on this.
prince charles wrote: CLT i believe we should always fear God even as regenerate believers, reason being that if we dont our degenerate inclinations are likely to give (even) more offence and also lack of fear of God in its broadest sense will cause us to be much less attentive. This fear is the final backstop and safety net for us, its the begining of wisdom and godliness it keeps us in our place,
Hi, Charles, I think it is interesting if you take your statement about seeing ourselves as God sees us, only, after conversion, in Christ - perfect. As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our sins from us. We are no longer sinners, but saints. Think on that - forget what lies behind. We must keep our eyes on our Saviour, not on ourselves.
Now, as to fear, love is far greater than fear. And that is what the Father has bestowed upon us - His Love - that we should be called - not just called - but, in fact, ARE, the children of God. We have a LOVING Father, and we serve Him out of love, not fear. Fear is what keeps the moralist, or the legalist in line. Love is what compels us to die if need be, and to count it a privilege. Fear only obeys to avoid punishment. We obey to show our love.
Vx2xV wrote: NO!! Candle Lit - Fear of God comes AFTER regeneration. Part of the definition of the Greek here is that, by analogy, "to be in awe that is to revere." Deut 31:12/13
Interestingly, the answer is within your own post, from the Scripture that you included: "Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, they they may HEAR, and that they may LEARN, and FEAR the LORD your God, and OBSERVE to do all the words of this law: And that their children, which have not known any thing, may HEAR, and LEARN to FEAR the LORD. . ."
This fear that is produced from hearing the word of the Lord, is a fear of the wrath of God upon their sins, and eternal punishment in hell.
Now if your definition is "awe" or "reverence" then, that is of the Believer. But, I would submit to you that it is the LOVE of God which produces this awe and reverence which is called "worship." Redeemed man does not fear the wrath of God
So, do you see the progression? Hearing - learning - fearing - observing?
For you argument to hold true, you would have to have them regenerate before or upon hearing. That just is not the case. Most people will have heard more than one time before they are converted.
Vx2xV said, "Cornelius was God fearing BEFORE Peter spoke." _____
Yes, "the fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom." Certainly, fear comes before conversion. It is the Holiness of God contrasted with the sinfulness of man, convicting the soul, through the work of the Spirit, and the Word preached, that brings the fear of God.
At conversion, love is shed abroad in the heart of the Believer. We are told in 1 John that "perfect love (the Love of God) casts out all fear." If the Believer has fear, it cannot be of the judgment or wrath of God, but of displeasing our Lord and Saviour, possibly, His chastisement, and the inherent consequences associated with sin.
Fear of God is a good thing in bringing us to Christ.
DJC49 wrote: Where do you find this in Acts? I think you're romanticizing a bit much. Unbelievers would fear simply because of the closeness of God??? C'mon! How would THEY know about any "closeness of God?" Perhaps they didn't want to have anything to do with the church because a couple of it's members dropped dead! [Acts 5:11,13]
Your question was directed at John, so I won't comment on it. However, I did want to say that your questions hold us accountable for what we say, and make us think, thus, keeping us sharp! We need that!
I'm presently listening to that message that you recommended by the pastor in Matthews, NC, on the "mystery of the union with Christ - pt. 4" Thanks for the recommendation.
John UK wrote: Mornin Candle Lit And thank you for your kind consideration. I'm busy with chores, but will keep dipping in.
But as for 'holiness' dying when Adam sinned? No, I think you're up a gum tree with that one. Sure, as soon as he sinned, holiness disappeared, but not as a result of God's judgment. The judgment is clearly spelt out in its various forms; but what is this 'death' which has affected mankind so profoundly, requiring such amazing grace through quickening to effect a cure?
"dipping in" - I do the same, John. Hit that refresher button in passing - I keep my laptop on the kitchen counter.
Holiness "disappearing" is better said. So, we are back to the original question, "what died?" The physical death which came later is evident, but God said, "in the day that you eat, you shall surely die." So, what died that day? You know, I like to think on these things, and I'm sure we won't know the answer until we see Him, but isn't it wonderful just knowing His Presence? We don't have to have all the answers, because we trust Him. And, what He has revealed with clarity is more than enough to keep us occupied.
Have a nice day, John. It is good to be able to think with you.
I'll catch you on this side of the day rather than at the end, so as not to keep you up late as before with our exchanges.
Thinking on God making man in His Image, and the question of what died when Adam disobeyed God - could it be Holiness? God is Holy, and man is not. But, was Adam Holy? Did the part of man most like God, His Holiness die when man sinned? If so, then that is what needs to be renewed, restored. . when Jesus ascended into heaven, the HOLY Spirit came to dwell in us - a very real presence, just not in theory. We are MADE holy through the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is talked about in Christian circles, but it does not seem that people KNOW the actual presence of the Holy Spirit. I remember in one of your post where you said that your presence at one time was very convicting to people. I understand what you meant by that.
p.s. I think of that verse that says, "Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord." Also, "Be holy, for I am holy." And, then Isaiah says, "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, is the Lord God Almighthy." Sinful man can NEVER be Holy apart from the work of the Lord. Redeemed man has the presence of the Holy Spirit and is declared holy and is becoming holy in reality.
When I think of how John UK in an earlier post said that Bunyan describes the spirit as being a distinct part of the soul, that makes me think like this: the spirit is an active presence residing in the soul. The more that I think on the characteristics of the spirit, it would seem that would be true. The soul would be to the spirit what the ark of the covenant was to the Holy Spirit - a place of residence.
walking wrote: Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the ***DIVIDING ASUNDER OF SOUL AND SPIRIT,*** and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." It appears that they can be divided which implies that [a] they may be one together - but [b] the Word is of such power as to "separate" them. And therefore [c] that they are "two" (?) Calvin says.... "The word soul means often the same with spirit; but when they occur together, the first includes all the affections, and the second means what they call the intellectual faculty. So Paul, writing to the Thessalonians, uses the words, when he prays God to keep their spirit, and soul, and body blameless until the coming of Christ, (1Thes 5:23,) he meant no other thing, but that they might continue pure and chaste in mind, and will, and outward actions. Also Isaiah means the same when he says, "My soul desired thee in the night; I sought thee with my spirit." (Isaiah 26:9.) What he doubtless intends to show is, that he was so intent on seeking God, that he applied his whole mind and his whole heart."(Cmntry on Heb 4)
Alan H wrote: Candle Lit, You sound like you have some uncertainties. I have included a link to John Bunyan's book "The Greatness of the Soul, and Unspeakableness of the Loss Thereof; with The Causes of the Losing It."
Thank you, Alan, for the link. I love the works of Bunyan, and I had not read this one. Having perused it, and bookmarked for further reading, I see that Bunyan makes the soul and spirit synonymous. It is easier to understand a person as "body and soul" rather that "body, soul, and spirit." I have never understood the distinction between soul and spirit. Then, when there is further dividing of man having his spirit, and redeemed man having the Spirit of God, as distinct, it really gets confusing(crowded even.)
Thank you for your concern. I would never go beyond what Scripture says even though I may think outside the box. One thing I know for sure and that is that I am the Lord's. "He who began a good work in me will complete it." But, thank you for that admonition. It would be so easy to get off-track, but I am confident that the Holy Spirit will keep me, and through His Word and His people He will admonish me. You are a blessing for taking the time to address this and to provide the link.
I think I kept you up too late! Sleep in tomorrow. Thanks for your responses to my questions. There needs to be a emoticon for sleeping! Oh, well, I'll try with words: hands together, against side of head tilted, and eyes closed. Good night.
Maybe it is wrong to say that the spirit is dead. Maybe, it is that man is void of the Spirit, until God quickens his spirit, makes him alive to the things of God. I know people who seemingly have no spiritual interest whatsoever. Then there are those who have an interest, but in "other spirits" definitely not of the Lord. Only the Lord can make us alive spiritually when He gives us of His Spirit at regeneration. Oh, I hope I haven't lost all credibility by throwing these thoughts out there. Thankfully, there are plenty to correct me on this. _______________
Good night, Charles
p.s. When Adam walked with God in the Garden, he had not sinned at that point, so he would not have been consumed, but God did interact with him after he had sinned, so. . .I don't know.
prince charles wrote: i dont see why adam should not have had the spirit ? but i can see why he would have needed it to walk with God
Hmmm. . .I don't know. Was Adam's relationship with God external, as when the "angel of the Lord appeared to Abraham?" Of course, after the fall the Holy Spirit was represented by a temple/ark of the covenant, and, yes, the Holy Spirit came upon men, but did not dwell in men. That would be the glorious revelation, mystery, if you will, that is revealed in the New Testament with the coming of Christ.
I think I thought Adam had perfect intimacy with God, in the way that we have the indwelling presence of the Lord, but, now, I wonder? I'm beginning to think that he did not.
John UK wrote: The Spirit in the OT seems to me limited to certain, and that, for authority or power. How else could the new covenant be far more glorious than the old, but that every believer now has the Spirit, the Teacher, dwelling within?
I agree. So, then, Adam, even in perfection, never had the Spirit of God as we have it. So, when it is said that he died spiritually, what does that mean? Is that wrong? I think that I have just repeated what I have heard in this regards. The spirit does not die, but goes back to God. The only death that occurred was the process of the body dying, old age, sickness. . and, that was planned for in the original design because man has an immune system to attack disease.
It was your question to another poster, what died in man, that prompted my thinking on this.
Charles, I just read your post, and I lean toward the pre-mill position, which explains the 1000 yrs., etc., but, I'm not as certain as I use to be on this, having listened to godly men who are excellent at Bible exposition and who teach otherwise.
I'm running out of characters. I'll have to wait until someone posts for further discussion.