John UK wrote: Not all a-mils show no interest in old prophecies concerning the restoration of old Israel to their land. But mark this, if it is to be taken in a spiritual blessing way, how come the Israelies are further away from God now than they were in 1948? If you can answer me that, I might show a bit more interest in your position.
Maybe it will be for the Greater Glorification of God. Where sin abounded, grace abounded even more. God likes to do things in a dramatic way.
When Jesus came the first time, it was a time of great darkness for the Jewish people. For 400 years God had not revealed Himself to them as He had in previous times. So, this time of "grafting in of the church" to be followed by the "sudden revelation of WHO Jesus is, to the Jews" as indicated by OT prophecies, would be characteristic of God's work in times past.
If there is a dreadful, terrifying wrath, yet to come, that may get the attention of unbelievers, now (as in Ninevah) and lead to repentance. So, that 7 yr period will matter to those who are saved during that time. If we are with the Lord, it is irrelevant to us.
P.S. John, congratulations on the sale of your paintings.
TokSpk wrote: Lets try a little quiz Candle Lit. Take three people 1. Man lives quiet little life, job, family etc. But is not elected unto salvation. 2. Man lives criminal life, murders another man. Not elected. 3. Man lives sadistic life becomes a serial killer, kills twenty people. Not elected. All three are sent to hell by the Lord. Which man received the "worst" punishment for his sin?
Since God is Just, He will render a Just decision based on works. Therefore, the one who committed greater sins will suffer greater punishment.
Christians will be judged based on their position in Christ - and will receive rewards based on faithfulness.
TokSpk wrote: As for your 6 million/6 thousand theory. Cannot agree with you there since 'ALL' - 'ALL' mortals are SINNERS. Therefore the numbers game is irrelevant. As to sin itself look at the decalogue "Killing" and "Sabbath breaking" on the same sheet!!!
Yet, God did not destroy a city because of "killing" or "sabbath breaking" or because of 1 person's sins, as HE destroyed S & G - so, God sees sin differently from u, and, at times, judges based on the multiplicity of sins, and because of specific sins that are more damning than others.
TokSpk wrote: Well Candle Lit lets review what you said. a] "lessening" ??? Nobody is suggesting that. b] NO! MH did not say that. Does anyone of "sound mind" SUGGEST that is what he stated??? = LOOK at the point MH makes re the "Gospel" See [d] c] "millions killed"??? - Do YOU judge the iniquity/injustice of sin by the number of people involved? = Are you aware of the sin potential in YOU and all mortals? d] MH makes the point that the "Gospel kingdom" reduced the power of Satan. Clearly you disagree that the Gospel made any difference to Satan's power. Can you NOT see the difference between the Christian country AND the NON-Christian. EG Muslim???
Since GK took D of your points, I'll take C.
Simple mathematics says 1 is less than 2 is less than 3 and on, and on, and 3 million is less than 3 billion.
So, YEAH, I'd say that 6 billion people and their multiplied sins are greater than 6 million or 6 thousand. So, the sin aggregate is greater today, than has ever been in the past.
May I suggest that *IF* you are going to make a point, make it from Scripture, don't use another man to make it for you. After all, MH is just as fallible as we are, isn't he?
TokSpk wrote: If you actually think this is as BAD as it gets - or can be - THEN you clearly don't know sin very well!! Which is the usual place wherein we find your average ARMINIAN FREE WILLY living!!! The Bible teaches that Satan blinds the sinner!! So he has effect now! BUT If you want to live PERMANENTLY in Auschwitz for example - THEN will you see how bad it can be in the evil hearted sinner that is YOU and every other sinner on earth today! Of course GOD restrains Satan - Or are you convinced the Devil is really a nice guy at heart??? To try to JUSTIFY the ludicrous hypothesis if Dispy PreMill Rapture - YOU EVEN TRY TO MAKE OUT THAT SATAN AIN'T HALF BAD EITHER???
GK. Do you honestly believe Satan (or sin) is ALLOWED to be at his worst today??? Question - Are Dispy Rapture PreMills really Christian???
Thou speaketh without knowledge.
What is BAD - is your intro to an argument that you are unfamiliar with the participant's POV.
Go back and re-read the posts to know your audience BEFORE you make unfounded accusations!
DJC49 wrote: *Candle Lit* -- footnote: Pre-trib/pre-mill Dispyism has unfortunately made a fantastic mishmash of Scripture robbing Christians of valuable spiritual truths and realities by throwing many of them into the future. Example: "ruling and reigning with Christ." THIS reality is PRESENT and NOT just something for the post-trib 1000-year Millennium!
DJC49, YOU may be "Ruling and Reigning" Co-Regently with Christ NOW, but I am suffering with difficult, argumentative, mindless, persecuting people -
You also wrote: "is it only mere coincidence that there is absolutely NO mention of devils either possessing or being cast out of people AFTER the Crucifixion & Resurrection of Jesus Christ? In the Synoptic Gospels, it seems that there was MUCH casting out of devils, and this sort of thing was NEVER mentioned after Pentecost! I wonder if this has anything to do with Satan being bound from Christ's 1st until His 2nd Advent?"
I beg to differ with YOU - Demons are ALIVE and Well on Planet earth!!!!
As to our REIGNING and RULING with Jesus - We must first SUFFER with HIM - BEFORE we reign with HIM!!!
DJC49 wrote: *Candle Lit* -- There was NO innuendo whatsoever, you merely missed the thrust of my question to TL-C (just as he did himself). I wanted to know if it was the 1st resurrection ... and NOT if it was a BODILY resurrection. So, you missed it. NO "Big deal." And if you think that your resurrection "in Christ" as mentioned in Eph 2:6 is something ONLY metaphorical, I suggest you take your pick of one of [URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?keyword=raised%20with%20Christ&entiresite=true]]]THESE SA Sermons[/URL], give a listen, and get back with me. BTW, is your justification, your righteousness in Christ, your salvation (etc.) only something metaphorical? Well, lookie here!
Well, thank you for being kind, DJC. Difficult people have tested my patience this afternoon, and I'm a bit edgy.
Being raised to walk in newness of life is very real to me - not metaphorical, but it isn't the first resurrection. It is the new birth. Just as being crucified with Christ, doesn't mean that I hung on a cross - a Roman execution, rather the old me died at the new birth.
I'm sure that one or many of these sermons that you have recommended will say it better, though I'm not familiar with the names.
DJC49 wrote: *Candle Lit* -- 1)Yes, you "missed something." (but that's besides the point) Well, here it is AGAIN: 2)IS IT BIBLICAL TO STATE that the bodily resurrection of all the dead in Christ is "the first resurrection?" [1Thess 4:16] I'm NOT confused over whether or not it will be a bodily resurrection, rather, ALL I WANT TO KNOW FROM THE DISPIES is: Can this resurrection be rightly called "the FIRST resurrection?" NO ONE wants to give me a straight answer! A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice! 3)Now as for you not knowing of a resurrection that wasn't bodily, you better check out Eph 2:6 where it says: "And HATH raised us up together" The believer's UNION WITH CHRIST has us spiritually resurrected with Him at our new-birth/conversion! If you are "in Christ," you have been raised with Christ. 4)Of course, [since I'm not] pre-trib/pre-mill Dispyism, I'm one of the damned (per TL-C) _
1) Ok..I'm sure there is an innuendo in that comment - so what is it?
2) Yes, this is the first resurrection.
3) That's metaphorical.
4) No, one's eschatalogical views has no bearing on one's destiny in heaven or hell. I'm "pan-mill" - it'll pan out in the end.
Tony Lopez-Cisneros wrote: YES, I DO Have The Answer: It's Found In The Authorized Holy Bible-Scriputres & The Historic Ante/Post-Nicene Apostolic Writers/Authors On The Pre-Tribulation/Millennial RAPTURE ! Now, If "djc49" Can Live With That I Have No Qualms--But If He Ever Dies Without Believing THAT (The Authorized Holy Bible-Scriptures & The Historic Writings Of The Apostolic Writers On The Pre-Tribulation/Millennial RAPTURE); Then He Only Has The Great Tribulation (Hell On Earth) To Look Foward To; and/or Face Hell In Earth (That's Right, HELL Is In The CENTER [Heart] Of The Earth) After he Dies-- ONLY To Thus Be Physically Resurrected To Stand Before GOD @ The Great White Throne Judgement Seat: And Be Cast ALIVE Into The Eternal Lake Of Fire--Burning With Brimstone. . . . . . Which Is The Second Death !
Well, as long as the internet is up and running DJC will be just fine.
Actually, Tony that was said "tongue in cheek" - what I don't understand is this discussion about the resurrection being anything other than the body coming out of the grave - Jesus being the first resurrected. Who would have ever thought of a resurrection that was not bodily?????? Resurrection is the body coming out of the grave. Have I missed something?
Intellectual wrote: "We have here, I. A prophecy of the binding of Satan for a certain term of time, in which he should have much less power and the church much more peace than before. The power of Satan was broken in part by the setting up of the gospel kingdom in the world; it was further reduced by the empire's becoming Christian; it was yet further broken by the downfall of the mystical Babylon; but still this serpent had many heads, and, when one is wounded, another has life remaining in it. Here we have a further limitation and diminution of his power.
So, over the past 2000 yrs, there has been a lessening of evil, and peace for the Church? Is that what MH says? Does anyone of sound mind actually believe that? It doesn't take an *intellectual* to look at the 20th century ALONE to see the multitudes of MILLIONS killed by Lenin and Stalin and Hitler - and that was just in the first half of the century - combine that with all the murders and persecutions of Christians from the early church on, and I'd say there wasn't MUCH binding of Satan and peace for the church over the past 2000 yrs. What about the Black Plague of the dark ages? 1/3 of the world's population died? Are we still in a period of Satan's being bound? Tell me, please.
Nathan wrote: ..people just can't hold a conversation anymore. People I find are terribly uneducated to the point that when I speak they think I am a genius which is really rediculous. They don't even see when odd things happen around them. It concerns me that the words of Christ, "when I return will I find the faith upon the earth" may be meant to be a terrible warning.
Interesting post. You got my attention this morning - actually made me laugh out loud - the part about people thinking you a genius - not that you aren't, but just the way you expressed it.
In order for conversation to take place a few things have to occur - minds that are aware - which seem in short supply, and an interest in exchange - which is also in short supply. It's all about "me" doesn't allow for interest in another person which makes conversation uninteresting and unwanted.
The verse that you mentioned about Jesus saying "Will there be faith when I return?" seems to imply that there will not be. It is certainly true of the world today. There is religion, but is there faith?
John UK wrote: Oh yes Candle Lit, it is a cause for such great rejoicing, that the folks currently outside of Christ should be able to see us shine with anticipation of the coming of the Lord, for it 'draweth nigh'. Hey it thrills me just posting about it, and reading other's posts about this subject. What an amazing day that will be. All those disappointments vanish to nothing, all those pains disappear, the frown becomes a smile, the ashes become beauty, the spirit of heaviness is turned into a garment of praise. And if the Lord comes to awaken his people now, we will have all this before he comes. Wa Hey!! Praise God, and Amen!
We are definitely like-minded! This is my favorite topic - the Lord's return. I can't understand when Christians say they want the Lord to delay so that family members who are lost will be saved????
That verse in Isaiah about the Lord giving beauty for ashes, and a garment of praise for a spirit of heaviness, is so beautiful!
Some ladies at a church that I attended once, told me that I should join the "Women's Aglow" fellowship. I was at a PCA church - not charismatic. What was funny was when DJC asked me in one of our exchanges if I GLOWED. I think he was mocking me.
John UK wrote: And when that trumpet sounds, and the skies are rolled up like a scroll, and the Lord appears with all his holy angels and saints, that is the END of history.....that BLACK DAY, the Day of Judgment has finally come.....and all the dead shall be raised, many to everlasting JOY, and many more to everlasting SORROW. Be ready y'all, for he comes as a thief in the night, and sudden destruction shall come to the earth, with fire and smoke and great melting with fervent heat. On that day, the saints shall lift up their heads, for their REDEEMER has come for them. Hallelujah!!
This is that blessed hope that the Believer has, isn't it John? The coming of the Lord. Whenever I get discouraged with the world condition, I remember this: the Lord is coming. It is cause for rejoicing.
I especially love the Psalms 93, and 95-100, about the Lord reigning and His people rejoicing.
Of course, for those who have rejected Him, it will be a time of weeping and gnashing of teeth. O that sinners would turn to the Lord. I've prayed for many people for years, and they are not saved. That can get discouraging, but to remember that God is sovereign gives me comfort.
When I was younger, and after I had become a Christian, it was exciting to think about the sudden return of the Lord. So much has happened on the world scene over the past 40 years, that it is hard not to associate world events with Biblical prophecy.
I would like to think that the Lord returns suddenly and everything is settled, but I don't know how the minor prophets in the OT can be fulfilled apart from a literal fulfillment of God's promises to the nation of Israel.
Zechariah especially seems to establish the fact that God will yet deal with Israel. The amazing regathering of the dispersed Jewish people into the land designated by God as Israel after some 19 centuries seems remarkably Providential given that people tend to assimilate whenever they disperse. The fact that the Jewish people are living in the land, speaking Hebrew, and even using the shekel as currency is astonishing to say the least. Surely, there can be no other explanation for this regathering than God's Providence.
The pre-mill position addresses the minor prophets and Israel which gives credibility to their argument. If the amill's would do the same, it would be easier to compare the views.
An excellent dramatization of the Jewish wedding and the parallel of the coming wedding of Christ and the Church, is presented in the musical production by Zola Levitt in the link below. Zola, being both Jewish and a Believer, gave a perspective that is not often presented to the church for the pre-mill position. This is something that the whole family would find both enjoyable and insightful. Even the amill's might find this interesting/informative.
John UK wrote: You've a wonderful way with words Candle Lit. Part of your marketing training no doubt, the use of words in communicating. I wonder, have you ever come across a fellowship, either church or home, where onlookers could say something like: "See how they love one another!" I may just have found one such, and I am going to visit the pastor later this month. I hope it won't be yet another disappointment.
Thank you, John. If I have a way with words, it is because, as a child, I immersed myself in the Bible and literature. I got a Marketing degree because I wanted to be able to support myself. If I was successful in marketing, it was based more on my personality than marketing skills.
Oh, I hope the church that you are going to visit will be one where you will find sweet fellowship. It is unlikely that the church as a whole would have the distinction that you mentioned and that Scripture describes that makes onlookers wonder about the relationships - "See how they love one another!" But, among a small group within the church, that could very well be said, and possibly, overall. No, I have not found such a church, but I have found some sweet relationships within certain churches.
John UK wrote: Sorry to edit your post Candle Lit. "Relationships" I think is a key word. Interaction with either God or fellow man is built into our design, and without either, man is going to be depressed. "Stress" is often dealt with by the world by strong drink, which blurs the brain. Or security, which is a pseudo-relief from stress. But...
Ahhh....RELATIONSHIPS....one can sum up the CURSE in Broken Relationships!
How wonderful life would be were it not for sinful people - difficult people - cruel people - thoughtless, self-serving people! How could God love such a rotten bunch of people? But He does. He picks us up out of miry clay and puts our feet on the solid rock. He finds us squirming in the dirt in our mother's blood, and He washes us clean, dresses us in fine clothes, and showers us with His Love. What an awesome God we serve!
Such MARVELLOUS LOVE - that WE should be called the CHILDREN of GOD. Who can describe it? Who can explain it?
"And can it be that I should gain an interest in the Saviour's blood? Died He for me who caused His pain? For me, who Him to death pursued? Amazing love, how can it be that thou my God, should die for me?"
John UK wrote: Wow, that's amazing, even the good artists in Wales don't have their own PMA to help them with sales. I just hope I keep improving, so that the site has some good paintings to offer. Starting late in life I've got a lot of catching up to do. Are you still a working girl? Or are you now elevated to the rank of House Executive Officer?
HEO - that's a good title, and that would be me!
Starting late in life - lots of people started late in life - and, had years of productivity. The colonel of KFC was one such one. His fast food establishments are all over the world. There are others.
Carol Collette has certainly gained in status over the past 20 yrs.
John UK wrote: Hi Candle Lit One of my paintings is now hanging in an art gallery next to an old mill, a popular touristy spot in Pembrokeshire. It will be there all summer until it is sold. Someone had been in the mill recently asking for a mill painting for a wedding pesent, so I'm frantically trying to get one done in time. Carol's site is superb, and her paintings; way out of my league. My little site will be up DV in less than two weeks. But there won't be many paintings to put in it yet. Ha!
Excellent placement for your painting, John! Maybe you could schedule "time with the artist," a pot of tea, and a guest register for patrons to sign (with their addresses included). This would make a nice forum for exchange, and would be memorable for patrons. You could have some postcards printed with some of your work and contact info, for them to take home as a reminder of your work. Later, you could follow-up with a personal note, and a mention of new paintings. Personal connections are so important in a sale of this kind. Just some suggestions from your personal marketing advisor.
Did you sell your painting this weekend? How's the website coming?
A couple of days ago, after one our exchanges, I looked up a artist that we had purchased a watercolor from, while on a trip to Maine in the early '90's. Don't know if you are looking for something to pattern your website after, but take a look at her website, if you wish. Just Google Carol Collette. We have one of her winter scenes, Bright Night. It's actually increased some in value since our purchase. Who'd of thought?