Coming back to God's Sovereignty - "ALL things work together for good to those who love God!" Why? Because of His eternal election and predestination. Take away the second and you render the first meaningless.

Even if God is only able to "foresee" as the 'Armenians' say, then He would have foreseen evil and prevented its existence. He would have foreseen Satan's defection and refrained from creating him. He would have foreseen the great evil men of history and had them die in the womb.

But God raised them up for His own purposes, so that He might show His glory in them. Pharaoh was created for that reason only, read Romans 9. God did not just foresee, He ordains whatsoever comes to pass.

He has made all things for His own purposes and for their own end, even the wicked for the day of judgement.

The Bible does not say we are not responsible, it says we are not capable. We have the freedom to choose God, just not the desire or the ability for the natural man does not and will not and can not love and obey God.

So if God had 'foreseen' who would choose Him of their own free will and elected them on that basis, He would have elected no one.

Back 2 Basics wrote:
If what I've read in this forum is a sufficient representation of Calvanism, then there is plenty to disagree with biblically. I think you folks have defined it well.
Let me see if I get it. "God controls all or He's not in control at all." and "People resist God's will because it was His will for them to resist."
So you in essense blame God for sin. Shame on you. How unChristian. Why do you twist and distort the Scriptures to fit your view.
Don't you know that God cannot be tempted with sin, neither tempteth he any man. Don't you know that God so loved the World. Don't you know that God gave man a choice ever since Eden? Why do you blame God for evil? You really assasinate His Character. Will He hold you guiltless?

If there is one thing that exists without the express will of God then He is not God. If there is one molecule in the universe that is not under His sovereign rule then He is not God.

Hannes van As wrote:
First of all, God in His all-knowing, knew who would accept Him thus their names are written in the Book of Life even before the beginning of the world (foundations of the earth). It’s a difficult concept to grasp, because our human futile minds will never be able to grasp the fullness and timelessness of God. Remember that God is Outside of Time – He is NOT constrained by it, thus He can see the End and Beginning at Once – and He proclaimed the End from the beginning. Thus He already knows who will choose Him and who will not.

If Romans 8:29 is forced into your theology, then Romans 8:28 is the most hollow statement in Scripture.

coora wrote:
I voted yes to both. Where there are men in a church they should be in the overall positions of authority under God who is in charge. Paul makes this clear in his letters to Timothy and Titus, but where men are not available I see no reason why women should not take charge. Women are to be in subjection to their own husbands not to all men.
In government if the woman's husband is in agreement why shouldn't she take on the position.

We must be careful in rationalising things away. God decreed certain things to be a certain way at the beginning of creation. That is how they ought to remain. Jesus refers to this in his discourse on divorce; "You said..., but God from the beginning etc." Paul does the same thing when talking about the authority structure. "God from the beginning made them male and female and said..etc"

On the one hand it is true - it is not our faith that saves us. We are saved by grace THROUGH faith. But there are other texts that state we are saved by faith, justified by faith, have access to God by faith etc.

What I believe is a greater problem is our understanding of where faith comes from. There are too many who believe that we produce it ourselves, that our faith is what we contribute to our salvation.

ENGINEER wrote:
"So beware, for there are many others who will lead you astray with their false teaching and their habit of leaving the Word hidden while they preach their own version of the Gospel. A few people in my humble opinion, who while being good men and women, whom I think you should be aware of are: Kenneth & Golria Copeland, Morris Cerullo, Jesse Duplantis, Fred Price, Rodney Browne, Rod Parsons, Benny Hinn, Paul & Jan Crouch, TBN, Daystar, Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson Joel Osteen and others."
"The True Word of God has disappeared from the pulpit in most cases. There are some who still preach the Word, but few indeed. And, the sad thing is that this type of preaching is beginning to be more and more prominant every day....

I see this in churches that are vacant, and someone is in charge of the preaching roster. They treat the pulpit like a revolving door where everyone gets a turn, but serious preachers are ignored because they upset people.

On the topic at hand - most of today's translations are not translations at all, but transliterations. The NIV may be the most popular but it is also the most mutilated and the most deadly.

Observation Post wrote:
Icon O'Clast,
I am sorry to see you leave but I also understand. Many reformed voices have come and gone for exactly the same reason. Your posts have been a real blessing to me, brother, and I am sure others as well. God bless you.
. . .
Wayne M.,
Good to see your post. We haven't had opportunity to say hello to each other for some time. God bless you, dear brother.

Tell me - what is natural man capable of spiritually according to the Bible?

We are dead in sin! If dead in this instance does not mean dead, then doubt can be shed on the death of Christ, for many claim He was only comatose and not dead - revived, not resurrected.

Your salvation is a raising from the dead. The dead can not have faith. The just shall live by faith. This is what the whole Reformation was about. We cannot exercise faith! How can you exercise something that does not exist?

So tell me Casob - where does you faith come from? I asked that question of someone earlier, but he went to hide in the woodshed.

Mike wrote:
Judas was chosen. Was he elect?

"Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

"The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."

"While I was with them in the world I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled."

Did Jesus want to save Judas? Did God love him? The Bible says that the word of God, His express purpose, that Word which always accomplishes His decree, was fulfilled when Judas betrayed Jesus.

Judas, like Pharaoh, fulfilled the purpose of God which He had decreed from all eternity. There is a human factor where he hardened his heart, and a Divine factor, where God hardened His heart.

Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son and he to whom the Son wills to reveal Him, Mt 11:27

Inherit the Kingdom, prepred for you from the foundation of the world, Mt 25:34

No one knows who the Son is, but the Father and who the Father is, but the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him, Lk 10:22

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, Jn 6:37

No one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by the Father Jn 6:65

Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, Eph 1:4

Being predestined according to the purpse of him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, Eph 1:11

For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, Phil2:12

For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, IThes 5:9

God from the beginning chose you for salvation, IIThes2:13

Who saved us, according to His own purpose and grace which was to us in Jesus Christ before time began.

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God I Pet 1:1