I will tell you something. I will leave you alone for a few days and let you heal.

There is just so much truth you can endure anyway. I have done what I can to help you.

Maybe Mike from NY will come on and help you. I hope so.

The Scriptures, a witness, and a God given conscience is not a definition of "apart from divine intervention", son.

How can they believe on him in whom they have not heard and how can they hear without a preacher

So then, whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. It is not whosoever shall be saved shall call upon him like you erroneously teach.
The Lord will tell us who is twisting Scripture at the judgment.
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You wrote:

Being saved is NOT a flippant decision one makes on a whim, the heart must be broken over sin, humbled, and cry out for forgiveness.

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This is a grave error. One who gets saved might be broken over sin, humbled but that is not the way to get saved. The way to get saved is to believe on Jesus Christ and what he did for us at Calvary. That is all one must do and some are much more broken than others.
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I am not trying to be obnoxious but I do want be considered to have common sense.

Take a look at your comment:
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The verses you point out in John 12 have nothing to do with making a 'decision', it refers to belief vs. unbelief, those who reject the truth. Why do people reject? Because of their unbelief, their hearts remain hardened. They suppress the truth. "You did NOT choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit" John 15:16
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I mean, take that rhetoric to anyone that does not have a religious agenda and they will laugh you to scorn, and rightfully so.

Then you come up quoting Jn 15:16 in the context of chosen to salvation when it is really in the context of chosen for a particular service. He even gave the service a name. See Matt 10.

I am telling you, you fellows should be embarrassed with some of the junk you put out here and are serious about.
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Heathersett wrote

Then if you reject the idea that the church goers of Matt 7.21-23 did make a decision in coming to Christ.
Can we therefore assume that you really do support unconditional election as the Bible teaches?

Bernie,

_ c'mon now, follow the logic. There is no perserverence of the saints if a single name can be blotted out according to your theology and stop the side stepping. ..And they can be blotted out because they have been!

Ex 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
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What decision was made by these "believers" and why was *the decision* rejected by Christ.
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Excuse me, ...and you are seeing a decision for Christ where in this passage?
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Yes I do and no, it is not inconsistent. You also believe in the preservation and eternal security of the believers, do you not?
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Yes, in the preservation but not in the perserverance of the saints.
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You cannot know who is saved and who is not saved. You enter into the realm of Diety when you attempt it. By your criteria, Lot would not have been a justified man and you would have him condemned to hell. Yet the Scriptures says of this man:

2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

Lets hope a sane man from your town reads your posts and gets you the help you seem to need. That is all I have to say about your comments.
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According to the above two passages, when are names added to the book of life, when you made a decision for Jesus or from the foundation of te world.

Lone Wolf,

There is no instance when names are added to the book of life, only several instances where names are blotted out. Now, you say you believe in the "P" in tulip. Do you or not? You do not if your theology is consistent.

It was God's design to save all humanity and hell was created for the devils and his angels.

The idea that God's words can be rejected is valid only if they can be understood and received and your theology is a flat denial of the power of those words to convict sinners that have a conscience and knows the difference between right and wrong implicitly.

It is the Word of God that births believers into the kingdom of God.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

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Speak for yourself Bernie. I have made a decision for Christ and if you haven't, then you are a lost man and on your way to hell.

There is no other way to be saved and God did not begin salvation with my decision to trust in him, as you imply. He began salvation at the point of need, in the garden, when Adam sinned and he has completed it in the person of his own son, who died for Adams race, whether you like it or not.

I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I believe the testimony that God has given about him in his word that he is the saviour of the world. I believe his testimony about me, that I am a sinner and without his intervention I would deserveldly go to hell. But I believe that the grace of God allowed me to hear these things and I have decided to believe this and receive Jesus Christ for my salvation from sin, hell, and the grave.

Will you deal with the text of John 12:44-48 in the same manner that you dealt with Psa 12:6,7 and use the same hermeneutic, examining the words thouroughly, and coming to a conclusion based on what is said.

Please help me convince Bernie that a decision must be made by those who hear the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and salvation will be based on that decision.

Because of the manner in which we both approach Psa 12:6,7. I know we will agree that Jesus Christ made a clear and unambigious statement that he came to save the world and then proceeded to tell who will be saved and how. It is by believing his words and the rejecters of his word will be judged in the future, but not now.

Will you post your findings and your comments on your website?

I think with both of us working together, we can help Bernie. (and maybe some others).

When someone says, 'I made a decision for Christ', who is taking credit for salvation? Is it not the individual? God is not on His throne waiting for anyone to 'make a decision' for Christ, He draws whom He wills, humbles, and saves. It is His plan of salvation,

Do not show up at the judgment with this argument before God. It is past description how frightening it will be for one who does.

Here is what Jesus said:

4 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Now watch this!

8 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

There is believing and rejecting in this passage and there is a penalty for rejecting and a reward for believing.

I have a very difficult time of posting on this computer, which is my office computer because sermonaudio has a block on it. They do not have a block on my home computer but I most often use this one. Sometimes I prepare a comment and lose it before I can get it posted which was the case for my comment as an answer to you this early AM. I had given some serious thought to your comments and had read your web page. It frustrated me that I lost it and my time was getting away so I did not retype it.

Now, I think I will give more thought to whether I will even reply to your post at all because I do not think it will be productive to get into a bible version issue on this thread although a literal interpretation is what distinguishes the fundamentalists from the other options and fundamentalists usually demand an authoritative Bible and so are therefore most likely to be KJV onlyists, if you like that term.

I will say this about Psa 12 6. No one can doubt that the subject of v 6 is the words of God.

Why can't a person make a decision for Christ? It is the only way a person can be saved. The idea that a person cannot make a decision for Christ is ludicros in the extreme. If one does not process the information that God through his NT writers and witnesses has given concerning his son, he cannot be saved and he will not be saved.

Which of you men will teach that someone can be saved without the word of God? I say all of you teach that.

God wants this gospel preached to every creature simply because it is good news, glad tidings to every creature. God never says a man is not saved because he was not elected before the foundation of the world. The idea is ludicrous. He says they are not saved because they will not believe the gospel and because they love darksess more than light. What is the light? It is the life of Christ.

We are told we are begotten through the gospel.

1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet [have ye] not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

I sense that this man speaks for all you people and I have a warning for you. Notice what he said "unless HE makes a move towards them first".

This is the clearest and plainest denial of the person and work of Jesus Christ I have ever read on this forum yet.

For God so loved the world he sent his only begotten son! That is not a move towards us?

Joh 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Which is what, according to Jn 1? Yes, his life.

He says those that follow him, he says nothing about the elect.

Because the body will be changed and redemption is the word that is used for its resurrection. It is future and when the apostle stated what will happen to those who are alive when the Lord comes to do the job, the old body will be CHANGED, the word is not "saved". It will be immortal whereas it was mortal and those in the grave will have a body that is incorruptible whereas it was corruptible. In either case it will be new!

First of all I am glad to see that you do know that the redemption of the body takes place at it's resurrection and that it has nothing to do with election. It has everything to do with predestination to glory.

The difference between the soul and body is that the body ceases to exist and goes back to the elements when physical death occurs. In that sense it is not eternal. Certainly it does not have consciousness. The soul, otoh, does not cease to exist ever. It is eternal and the body merely houses it and gives it physical abilities. Paul called it a tabernacle in 2 Cor 5. The soul has been reedeemed by the blood of the Lamb but the redemption of the body will occur at a future time as you have correctly pointed out and is equivelent to its resurrection.

It will be a different kind of body, a new body.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

I think you are incapable of reasoning.

It is because the soul is eternal that God desires to save it. There is no salvation for it unless he provides it and he has made a perfect provision for all souls to be saved. Your soul is not somehow better than your neighbors and in spite of the fact you cannot discern spiritual truth such as the doctrine of man and the doctrine of salvation and the doctrine of end time events, et al, you can know you are a sinner and you can believe the words that God sent his son to die in your place so your condemnation can be lifted and all you need do about it is to receive his pardon throgh his Son as a gift from God by faith and he will justify you for it. This is truly grace!

For some reason most people do not want this and so they will not receive it. It is because they do not want to repent because they like their sin, not because they cannot reason with their intellect and will to believe God.

If they die this way, they are still eternal and will exist outside the presence of God.

This seems rather simple to me.

That soul is not left to itself without the influence of God and do not show up before God one day and present that as the reason for your salvation or you will be dissapointed and worse.
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The Scriptures are the influence of God. The Holy Spirit is the influence of God. Nature is the influence of God. Christians are the influence of God. The presence of God is the influence of God. Our conscience is the influence of God.
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The grace of God is sending his son to die for the whole world and including me in his salvation, fully and freely.

You men may not realize it but you are denying the gospel of Jesus Christ and it will probably take God himself to convince you when you actually stand in his presence.

The Word of God tells us all we can personally know about God. It has pleased him by the foolishness of the preaching of it to save them that will believe it.

If you are not prepared even to compare various English versions, and consider those other versions as valid translations, to inquire as to the meaning of the text, then you have a completely closed mind, not really interested in investigating Scripture teaching at all, but only interested in confirming your existing prejudices.
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The way to ascertain truth from the Scriptures is to compare Scripture with Scripture. It is vain to compare version with version. Versions are the product of men and some of those men might even have ulterior motives.

For instance, have you ever compared Psa 12:6,7 in the KJV with, say, the NIV? That would leave you with a decision to make. How about Mt 18:11?

If I were the devil and knew that men cannot be saved without believing words, my first order of business is to try to pervert those words with maybe a hundred different versions of it... if I could not destroy it. Then I sure would not seek out some peon from the rain forest to argue that true scholarship entails comparing these different versions but accepting none as having real authority, but I would try to get the religious men with lots of credentials and influence to do it.