Q"You will not find one posting by them on here of any verse referring to the elect, as that is a word they refuse to deal with and the word chosen is twisted in such a way to ignore it. "

A The elect are the saints of God—the chosen of God. God chose them before the foundation of the world because they have a will to obey and follow His Word. They have repented of their sins and are washed in the blood of the Lamb and have received the Holy Ghost and are walking in newness of life. They are new creatures in Christ Jesus.

Q"Again, the issue simply is ordo salutis and these folks really do believe that God died for everyone on the Cross and the whole world is loved by God. They really believe He died for all and only those who they can convince with their "spiritual gifts of tongues, healings, miracles, etc." will see their works of holiness, and cooperate with God to get others saved through believing alone."

A The Bible states that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world. You change the meaning of the words to promote limited atonement. Whosoever will may come and drink of the waters of life freely. God is no respecter of persons.(Acts 10:34)

"Unfortunately, the entire movement is based upon how much money you can provide to the church, how often can you speak in unknown tongues to prove you have the Spirit of God, how many miracles can you perform, how many gifts of healing can you show us to prove your relationship to Christ, etc.? Can you cast out devils then you are Chosen?
Women ministers are growing into this sect at unprecedent rates, and some of the best fund raising personalities."
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Not all Pentecostals fall under the description you give. Evil people will follow the money. If they think they can get rich off the gospel and by believing the gospel, they will fall for the lies being propagated.

Churches besides the Pentecostals are caught up in the financial gain process. They have elaborate church buildings and high salaried pastors.

The love of money is the root of all evil. You cannot serve God and mammon. People who try are deceived and the blind lead the blind. There are false gifts of the Spirit, but that does not minimize the true gifts. Satan is a liar and the father of lies. His plan is to deceive and he works at it day and night.

" Was it not Spurgeon who wrote:
"....The obvious literal meaning of a Scripture is not always the true one, and ignorant persons are apt enough to fall into the most singular misconceptions....."
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That is one of the biggest heresies going. God did not write His word in cryptic language and secret code so we have to have the divines of hundreds of years ago teaching us the meaning of His word. That is like the Catholic Church that must have the interpretation of Scripture given by the hierarchy of the church. Even so, you must rely on your popes to give you understanding.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Little children believe what they are told and do not seek deeper hidden meanings of simple words. The true saints believe the Words of Jesus Christ and are followers of Him. He stated what He meant and meant what He stated.

"I agree with this statement up to equating regeneration with "receiving the Holy Ghost". Paul teaches that regeneration of the heart and indwelling of the Holy Spirit are separate operations and gives the order in which they occur... (Titus 3:5-6)
Notice that "washing of regeneration" by means of living water, the answer of a good conscience toward God (1 Peter 3:21), comes before renewing of the Holy Spirit for good reason...

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"Not by works of righteousness which we have done" does not exclude works of righteousness. No one is excluded from doing works of righteousness. We have been accepted by God because of His mercy and grace and not because we deserve it because of our works of righteousness.

"Washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost" are not two separate operations. There is one regeneration and that is the infilling of the Holy Ghost. The infilling of the Holy Ghost is the rebirth—being filled with the Spirit of God.

Living water in the NT is the Holy Ghost.

Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

GOODBYE Terry!!

" Abi
Do you need to hear it again and again
Jesus came to save those that are lost
Matthew 18:11 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
11For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost
you put way to much emphisis on the righteous, for thats what you feel a christian is.
Abi, last time, if your in Christ, its because you knew you also were lost.
Someone in the Bible said something about forgivness of debt, and the guy who was forgiven would not forgive the one that owed him.
Climb down off your white horse,
the rapture has not happened yet.
and of course, your fav. closing statement, if I may be so bold
In the love of Jesus Christ with prayers
(really)
Terry"
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Yes, I need to hear it again and again. We all need to hear it again and again. Hell is eternal fire and brimstone. God is greatly to be feared.

Jesus did not mince words with sinners and unbelievers. What do you think He would say to sodomites?

"Neither do I condemn thee, GO AND SIN NO MORE!!!!!"

Speaking the truth is not a unforgiving spirit.

"Repentance and believing require a regenerated heart and mind. That is what regeneration means. It is the creation of a new creature.
You may have misunderstood that from the fact that during the Apostolic age believing and receiving the Holy Ghost were separate events at times. However, even though a few evidently believed but had not received the Holy Ghost, they would still have had to been regenerated by the Holy Ghost in order to believe.

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No. Humanity is not regenerated until the Spirit of God indwells them. There is no prior regeneration before the entry of the Holy Spirit. Repentance—turning from your evil ways with contrition, asking forgiveness and the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ prepares the heart to receive the Holy Ghost. I Pet 1:2 does not state that one is sanctified by the Spirit before receiving the Holy Ghost—the Holy Ghost sanctifies the saint. Sanctified means set apart for God's service, and no one can serve God without the Holy Ghost.

"Matt 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
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Jesus did not come to destroy the law or the prophets but to fulfil. Fulfil means to cause the law and prophets to serve their purpose. Jesus strengthened the moral portion of the law by changing the hearts by the regeneration of the Holy Ghost and taking away the desire for sin. He wrote His laws in the hearts of the believers giving them desire to be holy even as Jesus Christ is holy.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Mat 11:13-14 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

" Does anyone think that the kingdom of God was in existence already when Jesus came the first time to the earth. If so, the question is begged why would he preach the kingdom of God and use future tense languabe, i e the kingdom of heaven is "at hand"?
What is this kingdom of God and did he ever establish it?

These are important questions and the Scriptures must be reconciled to them."
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Jesus established the Kingdom of God in the hearts of His true followers.

Jesus said the Kingdom of God cometh not with observation, but the Kingdom is within you (Luke 17:20).
He also said that from the days of John the Baptist till now the Kingdom of God suffereth violence and the violent take it by force (Mat 11:12).

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

"...AIDS is epidemic, in places like Africa and India. Many non-homosexuals are infected. Rick Warren's church is involved in other "mercy ministries" through various programs.
What if we ministered to the homosexuals by showing them we value them as humans created in the image of God even though we hate their sin?"
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How do you minister to evildoers in the spirit of love? Love does not patronize sin or the sinner. Love speaks truth to its neighbor. Telling people that their sin will lead them to hell is being truthful. Although they already know it, but they need to hear it again and again. I have never known soft talking sin to change anyone. When sin is accepted in society the sinners loose their sense of guilt. That is what the promotion of their lifestyle is all about—they do not want to feel guilty but accepted by everyone.

When sin was not acceptable in society, there was much less sin and certainly the sinners did not parade their sins and try to force their lifestyle on others as they do today.

" Abigail, JD, Yamil, Michael, Discerning Believer.
"It is important to recognise, however, that all are liable to sins of this sort and indeed of every sort. No one is immune. We may say with Hazael: “Is thy servant a dog, that he should do this great thing?” (2 Ki 8:13),
but we are warned, “Let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor 10:12).
Robert Murray M‘Cheyne said “I am tempted to think that there are
some sins for which I have no natural taste, such as strong drink, profane
language, etc, so that I need not fear temptation to such sins. This is a lie –
a proud, presumptuous lie. The seeds of all sins are in my heart, and perhaps all the more dangerously that I do not see them.”
The way into sinful practices is often gradual. One fall into sin leads on to
another; and where lust is indulged, it increases."
(FPC Mag)"
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When we are filled with the Holy Ghost we have desire to overcome all sin and to don the likeness of our blessed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.. Satan tempts us through our weakest points, but we must flee to the cross of Christ for shelter. He has promised that He will not permit us to be tempted above what we can bear and that He has offered a way of escape in time of temptation. (I Cor 10:13).

"Notice how Abigail gives the order above, and puts repentence even before believing. She does not want to deal with the ordo salutis because her righteousness exceeds the righteousness of God Himself with her theolog"
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No. Believing comes before repentance—one would not know to repent if he/she did not believe the Gospel. I have no righteousness of my own. In this flesh dwelleth no good thing. Righteousness in the saints is "Christ in you the hope of glory" by the indwelling Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost leads—not in sin and degradation— but guides in paths of righteousness. All praises be unto God the Father and His blessed Son Jesus Christ. In the cross of Christ I glory

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

2Co 10:17 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

"Do a search on SPIRIT in the OT and see if you cannot see it is the same Spirit as that which Christ left on earth as the Vicar of Christ..."
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The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost have been in operation throughout all eternity. However, since the foundation of the world, God has dealt with humanity according to His covenants. The Spirit of God moved on the OT saints at times, but the Holy Ghost did not indwell the saints.

The Israelites in the OT were saved by faith by which they kept the commandments, statutes, and ordinances of the Law. They were required to continually offer sacrifices for their sins, which sanctified them (Heb 9:13), but those sacrifices could not take away sin (Heb 10:4). God forbore their sins until the time that Jesus Christ was offered up for the sins of the world. The Israelites of the OT were not regenerated. The new birth was established by Jesus Christ and was first experienced on the Day of Pentecost after His death, burial, and resurrection when the disciples and others (about 120) received the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:4) according to the promise.

Heb 8:7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

"What potter do you know that sits and talks to the clay, asking what shape it would like to be?
Why not read the whole context here.
V36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
V37 Now *WHEN THEY HEARD* this, they were pricked *IN THEIR HEART,* and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
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God talks to us through His word and shows us what He wants us to be. That is the potter talking to the clay. We must be pliant in His hands and let Him form us into the image of His Son Jesus Christ, which is His desire for all His creations—a new creature in Christ Jesus created unto good works.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye **shall receive** the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Act 2:38)

You are blind to miss the fact that they had to repent and be baptized before they were regenerated by the Holy Ghost?

"…not sure that obedience is all there is to righteousness, But praise God, I think I understand you. Yes I have a Bible, and I belive every word of it.
The Bibles also teaches humility, among other things.
Thanks"
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Obedience is not all there is to righteousness. We must be filled with the Holy Ghost and follow the leading of the Spirit which leads in paths of righteousness. Jesus was perfectly righteous, and we must be in the process of being conformed to His image.

Humility is the opposite of pride. Humanity without Christ is one mass of pride. Every evil act stems from a heart of pride. People can put on a show of humility in their pride. When we yield to pride, we yield to the devil.

But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. (Jam 4:6)

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. (Jam 4:7)

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. (Jam 4:8)

Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. (Jam 4:9)

Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. (Jam 4:10)

"Abigail;
I did NOT say that
This is what I said quote::
"Or to put it another way.
JD states as he has before -
Salvation is by human effort/works and God needs the prior permission and cooperation of the sinner before HE can save."
It is "JD" that I was referring to, who Practices "salvation by works" the Roman Catholic dogma. This is the religion of the Arminians!
(Of which I believe, you are also one)
I am a Calvinist of the Biblical Doctrines of Grace. Teaching a Sovereign God, and Totally Depraved Human race, incapable of spiritual decision until Grace and the Holy Spirit enables the sinner to respond."
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For God so loved the **world**, that he gave his only begotten Son, that **whosoever believeth** in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Joh 3:16)

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the **world**; but that the **world** through him might **be saved**. (Joh 3:17)

God loves the world and it is His desire that all should come to repentance. (2Pet 3:9).

"Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
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For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (Heb 10:26)

But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Heb 10:27)

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: (Heb 10:28)

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Heb 10:29)

The Scripture you quote is saying that those who sin wilfully (sin—transgression of the law) will receive the fiery indignation of God. It says nothing about humanity voluntarily offering himself to God because he loves Him.

"Sinless perfection, are you without sin Abi?
All that are born of the Spirit and are walking in the Spirit are righteous as Jesus Christ is righteous
Or the above implies
sinless by imputed righteouesness of
Jesus.
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I am stating what the Bible states. Do you believe the Bible? Human reasoning is not spiritual discernment. The Bible teaches sinless perfection. Don't you think we should be striving to be what we are called to be—which is sinless. Righteousness is imputed by faith even as it was with Abraham—but faith yields obedience, which is righteousness.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

We are not under the law but grace.

Rom 6:1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

"You have presented nothing to establish your view."
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Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Act 17:30,34 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:…Howbeit certain men cleaved unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them. (Act 17:34)

Act 26:20 But showed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

All of these Scriptures show that believing and repentance comes before receiving the Holy Ghost (regeneration).