I guess I failed British History 101... Oh, well, that's how I thought it happened.

Michael, John and Wayne,

My point about "holding my own" was just that I don't usually do this kind of thing. Yet, when charges were brought by you against the Church, I could find Scriptural Passages supporting the Church's stand on the issue. Doesn't it strike you as odd that the charges you consider to be obvious against the Church can be rebutted by someone like me? I have no formal training in this kind of thing yet I can find Scripture Passages to support something that you contend is unScriptural. And sometimes it is something as simple as pointing out the use of a word like "Presbyter".

I have never really debated this stuff. I started a prayer journey 20 or so years ago to determine if there really is a God and, having satisfied that question, what Church should I belong to. The Holy Spirit guided me to the Catholic Church. You seem to have convinced yourselves that the Catholic Church is the great harlot of Rev, but neither I nor many other Catholics see that. Remember, many of the greatest theologians in history were Catholic. Do you know something they didn't?

opened eyes,

I have gone through the Scripture Passages you mentioned and I think I hurt my head Here is my take on what is being said:

Basically, Leviticus is describing to us what a Priest is. In very general terms, it says that a Priest is someone who offers something up to a deity. The "something" can vary and the deity can be the True God or a false god.

Hebrews is trying to establish that Jesus is the High Priest on the order of Melchizedek. One interesting thing I found was in Heb 13:10, mention is made of an altar. An altar is a usually fixed place of sacrifice. Since Heb 13:10 says that we have an altar, then we must have Priests who are the ones authorized to make a sacrifice and we must have something to sacrifice. So, who are these Priests and what are they sacrificing? The answer lies in the Last Supper. Jesus took the bread and wine and offered them up to His Father (the sacrifice) and asked the Apostles to do that in remembrance of Him making them Priests because they are to offer the same sacrifice to God.

Unfortunately, the Bibles I use are on my notebook computer which is temporarily out of service so I couldn't read all of the Scripture you list. I have found Heb 14-16 online and I will read the others as soon as I fix my computer.

In regards to Heb, though, if I understand your objections correctly, you seem to be saying that the Priesthood of Jesus and the Priesthood of the Catholic Church are competing Priesthoods. How did you come to that conclusion? My way of reading those passages is that Jesus is our one and only High Priest. However, that does not preclude the existence of "rank and file" Priests. Catholic Priests are, as far as I can see, Priests of Jesus' Priesthood. The Priesthood of the OT is no longer so Catholic Priests can't be of that genre. I will try to see if I can find in Sacred Scripture something that supports the existence of Priests in the Catholic Church.

I will never reject God's Word. Sometimes, though, there are multiple interpretations of His Word.

First, John, you were refused the Eucharist because you weren't Catholic. Since you were not Catholic, you would not believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. Paul made it very clear that we must not profane the Eucharist. So, you were refused for your own good - otherwise you would offend the Body and Blood of Jesus.

Why would God bless Peter in that manner? Isn't he the one who would deny Jesus 3 times? And yet, Jesus gave him the keys to Heaven. What was Jesus thinking? How could He include people in His Church who would do such things? How could Jesus possibly believe that He could build His Church when He starts by calling sinners and people who would deny Him? You would think that He would know who the elect are and start with them.

The Catholic Church makes it very clear to all Catholics that there is only one Mediator between God and men: Jesus. As I have said many times, Wayne, Mary is a coMediatrix who intercedes with Jesus for us. If the Church wanted to proclaim her as a Mediator with equal status with Jesus, she would be referred to as a "Mediatrix". Since she is *not* equal to Jesus, she is a coMediatrix.

If it is a waste of time to have Mary or any Saints pray for us, why are we told to pray for each other? Our prayers for each other are intercessory prayers just like the prayers of the Saints. I don't know about you but I can certainly use all the help I can get.

If you mean 2 Thess 2, yes I have read it. Is there something in particular in that Chapter you wish me to see? I don't see anything against the Catholic Church if that is what you are hoping. I sincerely try to see the things people say I should see condemning the Church but I simply don't get that meaning. On the contrary. Notice in the first verse it says "...purporting to be from us". Since the "us" he is referring to is the Apostles and the Catholic Church formed out of that group, that passage is referring to the Catholic Church as far as I can see. Further, he says in verse 4 "...proclaiming himself to be God". Who in the Catholic Church proclaims himself to be God?

I'm afraid I don't view Mr. Bennett as a very reliable source. I watched his video on the Inquisition and it was so full of half truths, misinformation and disinformation that I thought he would have been able to get a job with the Nazis as a propaganda minister during WWII.

I don't understand. So many people here are very quick to exclaim "Scriptura sola". Yet when Scripture is presented to them, they disavow it. Here is what Jesus said:

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter. And upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matt. 16:13-18.

So either you accept Scripture or you reject it. Jesus named Simon “Peter” and immediately said that “upon this rock (Peter) I will build My Church”. Jesus *did* build His Church which became known as the Catholic Church.

Has it occurred to you that your interpretation of Revelation may be flawed? I believe that your identification of the “Great Harlot” is off the mark.

The Church is not trying to keep the Bible out of people's hands.

The torture and killings in the Inquisition were carried out by the civil authorities, not the Church.

If you have access to an electronic form of the Bible, do a search of the NT for the word "Presbyter". It occurs many times and it means "Elder" and "Priest". Is your objection to the use of the word "Priest" or to the hierarchy of the Catholic Church?

You are acting like JPII was the first Pope. The Mass has been around for 2000 years, Maryolatry is a myth, the Rosary has been with us for a century, idolatry has been outlawed in the Church since the time of Jesus, what must be done for salvation is in the Bible, the True Church is the one Jesus built and Purgatory predates JPII by quite a few years. So, what difference does it make what JPII said about Allah?

As for your links:

The one questioning whether the Catholic Church is Christian or not bases its entire response on the fact that the Church teaches salvation based upon both faith and works. The author claims that such a position is unBiblical. I suggest that the author read the first chapter of James.

The one asking if the Catholic Church is the one true Church or not is full of very obvious errors. It says, among other things, that the Church teaches eternal punishment by fire for sins but not about a future glory with Jesus. Hello? Perhaps Mr. Gendron should also do a wee bit of reading.

I am a Catholic because I believe that the Holy Spirit lead me to the Catholic Church. Is it possible that I am wrong? Yes. But until someone comes along with convincing proof that I screwed up, I feel that I made the correct decision and will stick with it.

I can’t say that JPII was right or wrong in his assessment of Allah. I know that he was a great theologian so his opinions do carry a lot of weight. Since I am a Christian, though, I have never spent any time trying to determine if he was right or wrong. To me, the fact that Muslims reject the fact that Jesus is the Son of God is far more important. Unless they accept Jesus as God’s Son, it makes no difference if Allah and God are one and the same or not.

We have been through these arguments before:

The Mass. Everything in the Mass is Biblical and has been practiced the same way for almost 2000 years. Jesus said "do this in memory of Me".

We do not worship Mary. She is held in very high regard but she is not a goddess. She is, however, a co-mediatrix `providing intercessory prayers for us to Jesus.

Presbyter is used many times throughout the NT. One of its meanings is "Priest".

The Church does not interpret the Bible for me or any other Catholic unless we want a particular Priest, etc, to interpret it for us. We are not automatons.

If you wish to reject our interpretation of John 6, go ahead. That does not make our interpretation wrong or unBiblical. We do ****NOT*** practice idolatry in any form.

Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins. Which Sacrament(s) has no warrant in Scripture? If you open your mind, you will find ALL of them there.

Can you prove your statement that Baptism does not make a person Christian?

How, pray tell, is Purgatory lucrative? Lucrative to who?

Posts like yours are the ones that make me believe that I made the correct decision in joining the Catholic Church. As for your comments:

Jesus is The Rock.
Jesus gave Simon the name "Peter" which means rock, not stone.

Jesus is the head of His Church.
The Pope is the earthly head of Jesus' Church as assigned by Jesus (Matt 16)

The guide of the Catholic Church is the Holy Spirit as Jesus promised.

Catholics worship the One True God alone. We do *not* worship images, Mary, or Saints. The Eucharist is Jesus as He promised at the Last Supper.

I haven't a clue what you are referring to as sensual or material worship.

There is one mediator between God and man: Jesus. Mary is a co-mediatrix in that she intercedes with Jesus on our behalf.

I, like all Catholics, trust in the Mercy of God.

I don't know where you get your information from, but you should check your sources.

June,

OK, I found a copy of the book "The Glories of Mary" online and checked out the quotes you listed. I assume that these quotes are from Boettner's work, right? I say that because they are taken out of context.

If you believe in the intercession of Saints, then the quote "And she is truly a mediatress of peace between sinners and God." makes perfect sense. Mary intercedes for us to obtain God's Grace for us. Similarly, "Sinners receive pardon by ...Mary alone" is referring again to Mary's intercession for us. She does not grant us God's Pardon; She asks God on our behalf for it.

The quote from page 130 doesn't exist in that book. Ditto the quote from pages 169 and 170.

John UK wrote:
War is totally preventable. If the oppressed party captitulates, then wars would cease, and there would be no killing, would there? That is the first question. The second is like unto it: Or would there?

You are assigning the blame for deeds done by a few misguided individuals to the Church herself. Yes, there have been sinners in the Church over the years just as there are today. Jesus Himself said that He came to call sinners and He has done a good job of it. But to condemn the entire Church over the misdeeds of a few - however heinous they are - is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Jesus said that He would build His Church and that the gates of hell will not prevail against Her (Matt 16:16+). I believe that because Jesus said it. I also believe that as long as satan is granted time on this earth, he will do everything in his power to defame or destroy Jesus' Church. Ultimately, he will fail, but as long as he is free, he will try.

Can you show me where, in Sacred Scripture, it says that the name "Holy Father" is reserved for God alone?

Jesus Himself told us that He will change plain old bread into His Body and wine into His Blood. Why don't you believe Him?

Can you show me where it says that the comediatrix is a demonic imposter of Mary?

Michael Hranek wrote:
Bert
Unless God Almighty Himself has clearly identified the Roman Catholic Church as the Great Harlot of Revelation. Then you truly have alot to worry about. And you do.

I have come across a number of books and websites similar to what I understand Boettner's book is and they are all very similar. Make grandiose claims about the Catholic Church, swear that they are 100 % accurate but never provide any supporting data. If I don't have to prove anything, I can easily claim that your Pastor is the antichrist. That hardly makes me right.