Exodus 32:1 says "Come, make us a god who will be our leader; as for the man Moses who brought us out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has happened to him". Note the "make us a god" part. I have never heard anyone claim that the calf they made was supposed to be a representation of God. They wanted to make themselves a god (in some translations, gods) in the form of a golden calf and they did. That is idolatry in its purest form and it had absolutely nothing to do with the One True God.

readagain wrote:
You better read Exodus 32:1-8 again.

savedbygrace wrote:
Bert,
You might want to read over all of the previous posts. Have you read the book of John or Romans?

Michael Hranek wrote:
Note well the "Eucharist" of the RCC is bizzare. While claiming to follow Christ's teachings for years only the priests partook of both the bread and the wine while common Catholics were only allowed bread. The RCC inventing the bread was both His body and blood but that was not what Jesus taught.
OOS

djc49 wrote:
You need to read Scripture more carefully, Bert. The Israelites (Aaron in particular) made that golden calf as a representation of YAHWEH

Michael Hranek wrote:
Essentially deliberately erasing and excusing away the 2nd that forbids idolatry using Augustine's method of numbering them instead of God's.

Michael Hranek wrote:
And promoting the "veneration of images" in CCC 2132.

John Yurich USA wrote:
Yes it is totally unscriptural to pray to the Virgin Mary and the Saints for intercession and to believe that the Virgin Mary is comediatrix.

John Yurich USA wrote:
And it is also unscriptural to believe that the bread and wine are the actual Body and Blood Of Jesus.

I don't know where you are getting your information from but my 10 Commandmensts definately has the 'No idolatry' clause in both the Exodus and Deuteronomy versions.

As for the omission, I don’t know why that would have been omitted. My Bible definitely has the verses you list.

“Not ever lose their salvation”. Do you mean in this life of the next? If you mean in the next life, you are correct: we will never lose our salvation. But in this life? Are you saying that once I accept Jesus into my life I will never sin again? Christians have committed some very heinous atrocities during wars as a result of what they were exposed to. Are they still saved? What about satan? Wasn’t he in heaven at one point? It is true that we Catholics believe that we have to work for our salvation just as it states in the Bible.

Can you be a bit more specific about these "censorships"? To the best of my knowledge, the readings during a Mass are always complete.

Yes, I left out the "and no one comes to the Father but by me" part. But, I was writing in response to your suggestion that the Catholic Church doesn't teach that Jesus is the Truth. So, I quoted only the part necessary to address that suggestion.

Your assertion that the Catholic Church teaches that no one comes the the Father but by Mary is incorrect. I, as a Catholic, am under no obligation to include Mary or any other Saint in my prayers. We are taught that the Saints, expecially Mary, can assist us on our journey to the Father through Jesus but they are NOT the way to the Father.

Jesus IS the one mediator between God the Father and humans. Declaring Mary as "co-mediatrix:, the Catholic Church is recognizing her role in helping Jesus - not as an equal but as an assistant. Remember that Jesus came into the world through Mary so she has a very important role in our redemption - she allowed the Redeemer to be born. No incorrect teaching there.

SmallTownGuy (WayneM) wrote:
God could do whatever He wished, but the fact is God's Word has revealed that all are sinners (Romans 3:23) and death by sin was passed upon all men (Romans 5:12).

You have mentioned a number of times that tradition and Sacred Scripture are given equal authority in the Catholic Church. Each time, I replied that Scripture trumps tradition. Why do you persist in your errors? If you can provide Scriptural reference proving any tradition of the Catholic Church to be in violation of that Scripture, I will take that proof to the Pope myself!

savedbygrace,

See: [URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercession_of_saints]]]here[/URL] for an explanation of those verses.

Wayne,

See: [URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception ]]]here[/URL] for an explanation of the Immaculate Conception.

Mike wrote:
Bert, we may ask saints to pray for us, but we don't pray TO them. We pray to God.

Wayne,

Yes, we do believe that Mary is immaculate out of reverance for Jesus. If she was born with sin and sinned throughout her life, that would mean that Jesus was carried in a sinnful "vessel" while Mary was pregnant with Him. Gen 3:15 and Luke 1:28 are usually used as Scriptural references in support of Mary's being immaculate.

The Rosary originated with St. Dominic in 1214.

Also, for the first couple of hundred years after Jesus' death, there was debate about His divinity. Do you believe that Jesus is divine?

A Final Protest,

Can you show me where in Scripture praying to saints for their intercession for us is forbidden? Remember, when we pray to God, we are asking God for something that is granted or denied based upon His power. When we pray to the Saints, we ask him/her to pray to God for us. None of the Saints have any intrinsic power to grant or deny up anything. Just as Peter raised people from the dead (Acts 9) he did it by using God's power that was granted to him. Peter did not have the power in and of himself - only God can raise the dead.

I have also seen a number of accusations that the Catholic Church uses unbiblical or extra biblical arguments to justify her teachings. Yet, you state that the Reformation was ordained by God. Where does it say that in Scripture? I am not arguing that you are wrong (I really don't know) but what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If the Catholic Church is wrong in using extra biblical sources as justification, so are you. OTOH, if it is OK for you to do it, it is also OK for the Church to use the same arguments.

Please show me the passage(s) from Scripture that specifically state that any of these Traditions are wrong, esp. the Immaculate Conception or any other Marian Tradition.

Praying to Mary or any other saint: Luke 16:19-31, John 11:25, Rom 8:38-39, Ps 148, Rev 5:8, Matt 18:10, 1 Tim 2:1-4, Jas 5:16, Rev 8:3-4, etc

Wayne,

I didn't say that Mary is not being worshipped. To worship someone or something is to show that someone or something respect.

Try taking the Hail Mary and pulling it appart: "Hail Mary, full of grace" - Gabriel's salutation to Mary (Luke 1:28). "The Lord is with you" - Also Gabriel. "Blessed are you among women" - conclusion of Gabriel's salutation. "and Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus." - Not sure of Biblical origin but rather obvious anyway. "Holy Mary, Mother of God" - same. "Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death" - see response above.

The graven image part is referring to the worship and adoration of these objects not the objects themselves. We do not worship statues, etc int he Catholic Church.

John UK wrote:
Hello again Bert

John UK wrote:
#1 Correct

John UK wrote:
#2 Now then, what do you make of these apparitions of 'Mary' which seem to be on the increase; it seems 'she' is saying to the world that 'she' must be accepted by the Roman Catholic Church as co-redeemer with Christ before there can be any lasting peace on earth?

John UK wrote:
#3 Also, why is there a large cross in Vatican City which has Christ crucified on one side, and Mary crucified on the other side?

A Protest wrote:
The problem is in your "worship" of Mary. That is where your idolatry is!!

A Protest wrote:
Your church doctrine makes a very obvious point of this dulia type of worship, indeed a DOGMA of it.
We do not, nor would we ever dare to. ALL worship and glory goes to God in Trinity alone.

A Protest wrote:
Anything else in Christian worship is pure idolatry.
Icons, relics, statues and all this kind of superstitious idolatry is stealing from God, spiritual adultery from God, a harlot's work and satanic worship.