John UK wrote:
Now apply your logic test to the Mass, and you'll make progress, Bert.

John UK wrote:
But to answer your question, the only way really to look at it, is to ask yourself, "Why does God save some sinners?"

John UK wrote:
You say, I think, "Because they believed in Christ and did good works."
Whereas I say, "Because God chose to save some sinners."

John UK wrote:
Neither "faith" nor "works" actually play any part in the reason for someone being saved by God. And this is where you are going continually wrong. You focus on man all the time.

I am referring to s simple logical assessment of what you are saying. I think we can agree that if A requires B and B requires C then it follows that A requires C, right? It is not a direct dependency but if C fails, then it will cause the direct failure of B which will directly cause the failure of A.

In your argument about Salvation, you state that you cannot be saved without true Faith. But, you continue, you cannot have true Faith without good Works. So, can you be saved without good Works? No, because if you don't have good Works, you can't have true Faith. Without true Faith, you cannot be saved. Ergo, Salvation is by Faith AND Works.

Hi Wayne,

John 20:22-23 says "And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. 23 * Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."' . The Catholic Church interprets that as "And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. 23 * Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."" If you can find another interpretation, I'd like to hear it.

Incidentally, the Church's interpretation is in line with Matt 16:19. Matt 18:18 and is a logical follow on to John 20:21.

Hi John

I agree with you. I am simply saying that you and I both agree that salvation is through Faith AND Works. We don't agree on the "why" of that requirement but we do agree that they are both required.

Hi Biblion,

The Catholic Church has added nothing to Sacred Scripture. You may not agree with the Church's interpretation of Scripture, which is fine, but that doesn't mean that the Church added anything. On the contrary, the Church accepts John 20:23 exactly as it is written. It is non-Catholics who add (or remove) from Scripture. The Catholic Churh preaches the Gospel as it is written.

FYI: I am not subject to any Priest of the Pope.

John,

I have to go back to an earlier argument: the difference here is one of free will. You seem to believe that once you give yourself to Jesus, you lose your free will. That your actions (Works) are done not because you want to do them but because God wants to do them through you. We believe that we never lose our free will. When we give ourselves to Jesus, we still maintain our free will and can do whatever we want. We can do good or evil. Just like St Paul in Rom 7:19.

Wrighter wrote:
The RCC has already been excommunicated by God in the Reformation which HE ordained and caused in the 16th century.

John,

Wrighter wrote:
This is replacing God and Christ with worldly bits and pieces which eventually turn to dust, ie Idolatry.

In Lourdes, people do indeed go and pray for healing. Their prayers are again either directly or indirectly to God. If you think that that is unBiblical or idolatrous, check out John chapter 5.

I agree 100%. But, you are only looking at one side of the equation. Consider two more individuals:

Person 1) He has a deep Faith in Jesus as his Lord and Savior. He also believes in Salvation by both Faith and Works so he works as an aid worker for the millions of starving and sick in some countries; and

Person 2) He has a deep Faith in Jesus as his Lord and Savior. However, since he believes in Salvation by Faith alone, he performs no good Works.

Which of these two individuals, if either, do you think will make it into Heaven?

Wayne,

John UK wrote:
Tell me, do you regard aid workers who provide support for the millions starving or sick in some countries, as doing 'good works'?

How can a Saint be a graven image for you? As for the others, to me a graven image is anything that you worship as a false god. Since Catholics do not worship any Saints, images or relics, they cannot be graven images.

Hi John,

But the point is that good Works must accompany Faith or it is for naught (see James 2). How or why you produce these Works isn't the point. Look at Matt 7:21-27. Jesus does not talk about people's Faith but about whether or not they *act* upon His Words.

Hi Wayne,

Mike wrote:
There is a difference between merely professing to be a believer, (I'm a Christian)and being an actual believer. (I'm a follower of Christ) The goats were never true followers. (By their fruits you will know them, but their fruits do not save them) Neither eating and drinking in Jesus' presence, nor hearing his teaching necessarily makes a believer out of all who hear. (seed planted in rocky, thorny places, etc)

Wrighter wrote:
The confusion in the RCC with Mary and the Saints, is that tradition has obscured the Scripture, thus leaving NO difference between Latria and Dulia.

No Tradition of the Catholic Church that I am aware of obscures Sacred Scripture in any way. I don’t know where you get your information from – aside from Mr. Toon – but there is a big difference between venerating a Saint and worshipping God.

John UK wrote:
If you believe in salvation by "faith and works" you have not got the faith which saves. The reason for this is because you have not seen the immense "work" which Christ has done on your behalf, bringing to you a perfect righteousness, credited to you on truly believing in him, a righteousness acceptable to God because it is his own righteousness. When God justifies us (declares us righteous in his sight) we are fit for heaven immediately, and will go to heaven immediately upon death. Not purgatory! Straight to heaven.

John UK wrote:
Forget yourself Bert,

John UK wrote:
Please note:
"These things have I written unto you that BELIEVE on the NAME of the SON OF GOD; that ye may KNOW that ye have ETERNAL LIFE."
Oh yes Bert, we know all right. Christianity is sure and certain, not some shot in the dark. It is a very real experience of God's grace, leading us to Christ BY THE LAW, which reveals to us our sins.
And you want to try to get heaven by keeping the law. Phew! Try as hard as you like, you'll never make it, my friend.

Wrighter wrote:
Why do you then include all these unBiblical practices in the RCC? eg penance, priestly confession of sins,

Wrighter wrote:
the Mass,

Wrighter wrote:
the Virgin Mary,

Wrighter wrote:
the Rosary,

Wrighter wrote:
and purgatorial suffering,

Wrighter wrote:
dead sinners promoted by sinners on earth to positions of authority in "heaven(?)"

Wrighter wrote:
relics, icons, statuettes......???

Wrighter wrote:
The ONLY explanation for their use would be that your organisation cannot read Scripture - OR adds to it.

How many times does something have to be repeated in the Bible before it is true? I'll check this evening to see what other Passages I can find.

Tollemache,

-His being at God's right hand (Hebrews 1:2) is associated with His glory (Philippians 2:9-11)

True.

-He cannot be humiliated and glorified at one and the same time.

So, He was not glorified by His crucifixion?

-One thing is impossible to God (Cp Q267 above)…He cannot deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13)

True.

-The Mass cannot bring glory etc., to God seeing it contradicts God's word.

It fulfills God’s Word.

-The mass is a damnable heresy (2 Peter 2:1)

2 Peter 2:1 says that there will be heresies not that the Mass is one.

-God is already satisfied for the sins of His people through the once for all sacrifice of Christ.

In the Mass, it is the same Sacrifice as Calvary. We are continually giving that’s for that Sacrifice.

-The Mass denies the finished work by insisting it is still ongoing.

It is not. If it was still ongoing, Jesus would be crucified at each Mass. He isn’t.

-Far from bringing the grace of repentance… belief in the blasphemy of the mass itself needs to be repented of.

-Jesus Christ cannot be physically in two places at one and the same time… or else He did not have a real human body… which denies His all important humanity. The words of institution (Matthew 26:26-28) are evidently figurative.

Saying that Jesus cannot be in two places at one time is denying His Divinity

-The Bible uses the word "is" figuratively elsewhere: Matthew 13:38/Genesis 49:14 etc.,

Many words are used figuratively in the Bible. Many are not.

-To eat the literal body and drink the literal blood of Jesus Christ is, by definition, cannibalism!

Take your objection up with Jesus – He commanded us to do it.

-No man has the power to create his Creator, as claimed by the priest of Rome.

No Catholic Priests creates the Creator. It is by God’s will and the power of the Holy Spirit that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus

-The sacrifice of Jesus Christ was once and for all time and was offered in the past. e is now seated at God's right hand.

That He is.

-He is not being sacrificed on the Roman altars.

Jesus is being offered up just as He promised.

-His sacrifice is associated with His humiliation (Philippians 2:5-8)