Michael Hranek wrote:
rogerant
I've been thinking of the testimony you have shared with us and that how after you were saved in a dispensationalist Baptist Church you then began studying the writtings of Calvinistic/Reformed writers and shared with us how to you it was either Arminianism or Reformed.

But I do take offense at you thinking the need to PREACH to me and every other Reformed believer on these threads. I have my own pastor, thank you very much.

I have asked that you provide some substantive scriptural evidence to support your views. But what do I get in return, a sermon.

I changed my position to align them with SCRIPTURE, not Calvin's.

I have asked to see you and Back 2 Basics counter the exposition of scripture I have supplied, but to no avail.

Agapao (verb) displayed by God: “... for God loves a cheerful giver.” 2Cor 9:7. This use can be found in dozens of other passages.

Agapao (verb) displayed by saved man: “He that loves his brother abides in the light ....” 1Jn 2:10. This use can be found in dozens of other passages.

Agapao (verb) displayed by unsaved man: “... men loved darkness rather than the light ....” Jn 3:19. Also see, Mt 5:26, Mt 6:24, Lk 6:32, Lk 7:42, Lk 7:47, Lk 11:43, Jn 12:43, 2Ti 4:10, 2Pet 2:15, 1Jn 2:15, 1Jn 3:18 and Mt 24:12. A couple of these are injunctions to Christians to direct agapao in the right direction (e.g., 1Jn 2:15 and 1Jn 3:18).

Agapee (noun) in reference to God: “God commended His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Ro 5:8, plus dozens of other examples.

Agapee (noun) in reference to saved man: “...and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you ....” Eph 5:2. (This is the passage where the noun and verb are not divorced - “just as Christ also loved (agapao) you!” The same stuff!

Back to Basics wrote:
Let me see if I understand your ideology clearly.

Back to Basics wrote:
However, you do seem to be attributing love to be a noun inapprpriately.
Also: I can genuinely understand why it would be hard to God both loving people and sending them to hell.

As for loving something that is evil...

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Mark 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Pastor Click wrote:
We know that He is not willing that any should perish,

Even if you are Arminian, you believe that God is going to send people into a Christless eternity. But your god is going to throw people who he loves (noun) into a Christless eternity.

Our God will not throw anyone whom He loves (noun) "in Christ" into a Christless eternity.

I was brought up Catholic, became an Atheist, came to faith in a dispensationalist Baptist Church in Portland Oregon in 1993.

Back 2 Basics wrote:
My very simple but meaningful point is that there is a "seeming" contradiction in the commands to "hate" your wife and "Love" your wife in those Scriptures. We would agree that there are no contradictions in the Scriptures! Amen? Amen!
Therefore we must reason, as you did, that this is a figure of speech. Likewise, when we come across Otherwise, there is a contradiction in Scripture, which I do not accept.

The scripture speaking about God hating the sinner, are not metaphors or similes.

It all seems to come down to your linchpin verse "For God SO LOVED the world"

The noun form for the word love is love, the verb form is used as so loved or loving. Look it up. In other words, God so expressed his love TO the world, not only the Jews, but to every kindred and tongue.

Back 2 Basics wrote:
Secondly, Satan is an angel, not a man made in the image of God. So God's love towards satan is irrelevant to the dialogue.

This compilations of parable simile's are talking about counting the cost of being a disciple of Jesus, not about the character of God.

sim·i·le :a figure of speech comparing two UNLIKE things that is often introduced by LIKE or as.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Back 2 Basics wrote:
I would love to see them reconcile Luke 14:26 with Eph 5:25.If they do so correctly, then they will undermine their own doctrines. It will be fun to watch them try.

Do you believe that God loves (noun) Satan?

PS: There are those who are here to debate these doctrines because we believe that they are important. We are not here to try to pin down our opponents with Katie Couric "Gotcha" questions to make fun of them.

And let's stop with these twisting scripture accusations. We are not accusing you of maliciously bending scriptures to mislead the other party. You hold strongly to your interpretations as do we. It is disingenuous to attribute that sin other parties.

Back 2 Basics wrote:
DJ: Now you are saying something I agree with!

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified"

or

Back 2 Basics wrote:
Wow! Roger that does more than border on blasphemy. It is Blasphemy.

Resolve your interpretation of God's love with these passages.

Psalm 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Psalm 11:4 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men. The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Romans 5:8 For God commendeth his love TOWARDS us.

Back 2 Basics wrote:
Your explanatin is limiting the Holy Spirit. Secondly, throwing out multiduinus Scrip references is not a verification of biblical support.
Anyhow. I did REread John 3 & Ez 37. These references show me nothing to support that regeneration before belief or irresistible grace is biblical. Jesus loves you

You limit the power and the glory of the Holy Spirit's work in salvation.

Not posting any verses that supports your position verifies ZERO scriptural support.

The Holy Spirit breathing life into dead corpses in combination with the prophesied word was in response to God protecting his Holy name. Since God had promised Abraham descendents, He had to save people or his promise would be considered void. He did not bring people to life for THEIR sakes, because they had responded to his word. They hadn't.

NOW THAT IS GRACE!

Mike wrote:
Are verses needed to prove this? The argument is not about the Holy Spirit's work in prevenient grace, but whether it exists at all, which leads back to the real question of faith-regeneration order.
btw, why does it somewhere say "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord" if reason isn't biblical? He seems to think otherwise. Isn’t it better to agree with Him?

As of yet, none have surfaced. Are you admitting that there are none?

Yes God does call us to reason together, but THERE are COPIOUS warnings from Genesis to Revelation condemning man's reason when it TRUMPS revealed scripture!

Back 2 Basics wrote:
Jer 35:17 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel... I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.

Pikestaff wrote:
"What we are interested in exploring, however, is not how prevenient grace affects those who have never heard the gospel. The distinctive aspect of prevenient grace that is relevant for our discussion is that it provides the ability to choose salvation, an ability that was surrendered by Adam’s sin. Wesley describes it as follows:
Salvation begins with what is usually termed (and very properly) preventing grace; including the first wish to please God, the first dawn of light concerning his will, and the first slight transient conviction of having sinned against him. All these imply some tendency toward life; some degree of salvation; the beginning of a deliverance from a blind, unfeeling heart, quite insensible of God and the things of God.

We are patiently waiting...

Back 2 Basics wrote:
Rog: lets recall also that I did not accept View 2 as an accurate representation of our view. See 10/9/08 1:25 PM
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Isaiah 65:1, Eze: 11:19, 37:3-9, Daniel 4:1-35, Luke 17:5, John 6:29-66,15:5,16-19, Acts 11:18,13:48,16:14, Romans 2:4,9:15-16,11:5-7,29,1 Cor 2:14,4:7,3:4-5,Eph 1:18-19,2:1-9, Phil 2:13,2 Tim 2:25, James 1:18

Mike wrote:
Haven't heard of anything called a "spiritually neutral state." To the contrary, man's responsibility is made clear.
Prevenient grace is not innate to man, according to those who believe in it. It is what they might call enablement, or prompting of the Holy Spirit, the drawing we hear about. (John 6:44) It is not innate to man, but is a gift of God, His work in the unregenerate, prior to their salvation. It is affirmation that man cannot save himself or desire to come to God. The word 'prevenient' means preventing,(old definition) preceding, coming before.

Michael Hranek wrote:
Could it possibily be that in the area of inability those who are lost are unable to believe in Jesus Christ if they have never heard of Him? And those who have based their "belief" upon their predestination are unable to tell them how Jesus Christ saves sinners as they don't really believe that at all believing He only saves the predestinated elect and God will eternally punish in the flames of hell all non-predestinated people.

You are misrepresenting our position. You have been corrected on this on more than one occasion. Are you trying to misrepresent us on purpose?

Mike wrote:
For the sake of those who might possibly late enter the discussion: What are the 1 or 2-at-most topics allowed to be discussed?

View 1. That the Holy Spirit convicts of sin alone. Man then uses natural ability to embrace Christ.

View 2: That the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and then through prevenient grace lift's mans ability to a spiritualy neutral state where his will can choose, or reject the gospel.

Reformed View: The Holy Spirit convicts, quickens and creates a new, loving heart to the elect, so that they believe the gospel, repent and accept God's love in Christ.

Michael Hranek wrote:
Rogerant
Are you trying to tell me to shut up and don't dare ask any question because you all have hijacked this thread and are only pemitting discussions that will take this thread to where you want it to go?