Mike wrote:
Eph 2:8 "For by grace are ye SAVED through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the GIFT OF GOD:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Thanks be to God for His gift of salvation.

Doctor WOMI wrote:
I am not sure which Calvinistic god is worse:
1. One who cannot save certain people?
or
2. One who can save all but refuses to save some?
No matter how one turns it, it still looks like a crooked picture.

1. God can, and does save certain people, the elect.

Mike wrote:
Your group says that through a single sin of one man, sin entered the world, and death passed upon all men. So far so good. You also claim the death of Christ was not sufficient to save all, but only some. Why can you not see that you make the power of Adam in the effect of his sin, to be greater than the power of Christ in the effect of his atonement?

I do believe that DJC49 stated that Christ's death had infinite sufficiency to save all, because Christ's value in Himself is infinite.

Our position is that the value of His death was infinite, but it's scope is limited to the elect.

Michael Hranek wrote:
rogerant
In my opinion I would think you really don't care what answer I would give you as in your "Calvinistic/Reformed" belief you have already prejudiced yourself to hold to what I would call "the god of total irresistable predestination". So thanks but no thanks.

You have never answered the question. How does your god love these children. Did he preach the gospel to them? How could he have them killed.

How do you share your faith with an unbeliever when they ask you the question, "How could a loving god allow all the suffering in the world? How could a loving god allow innocent children to suffer?

Other wrote:
The question should be asked "what is meant by Calvinism"? Since Calvinism rates so high and the reformed churches so influential, apparently by the survey results, then what accounts for the continued worldliness and corruption of true religion in the churches?

Then I guess man made global warming must be true because it was warm out today.

There are dead churches all over, Arminian, Calvinist, fundamentalist pentecostal.

Michael Hranek wrote:
What I am saying is that some Calvinists/Reformed have so twisted this blessed reality to fit their "religion" as to have divorced it from who God truly is and in fact with their twisting of His Sovereignity blaspheme God into being somekind of wretched cruel unjust unloving uncaring unmerciful monster much more in line with Allah

Deuteronomy 3:3 So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining. And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many. And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and CHILDREN, of every city.

Luke 8:10 And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that 'Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Matthew 11:25)

Luke 18:7 "And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

John 6:65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

John 10:14-15 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

John 13:18 "I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Isaiah 44:1-2 "Yet hear now, O Jacob My servant, And Israel whom I have chosen. 2 Thus says the LORD who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you: 'Fear not, O Jacob My servant; And you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.

Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

Malachi 1:2-3 " I have loved you," says the LORD. "Yet you say, 'In what way have You loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" Says the LORD. "Yet Jacob I have loved; 3 But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness."

Matthew 20:16 "So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen."

1 Kings 20:42 Then he said to him, "Thus says the LORD: 'Because you have let slip out of your hand a man whom I appointed to utter destruction, therefore your life shall go for his life, and your people for his people.' "

2 Chronicles 6:6 'Yet I have chosen Jerusalem, that My name may be there; and I have chosen David to be over My people Israel.'

Psalm 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, The people He has chosen as His own inheritance.

Psalm 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.

Psalm 78:67-70 Moreover He rejected the tent of Joseph, And did not choose the tribe of Ephraim, 68 But chose the tribe of Judah, Mount Zion which He loved. 69 And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever. 70 He also chose David His servant, And took him from the sheepfolds;

Psalm 135:4 For the LORD has chosen Jacob for Himself, Israel for His special treasure.

Exodus 33:19 Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Deuteronomy 7:6 " For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; "but because the LORD loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 10:15 "The LORD delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is this day.

Billy wrote:
Ever hear of contextualization?

Contextualization is the process of assigning meaning, either linguistic or as a means of interpreting the environment within which an expression or action is executed.

So, lets not confine the interpretation of one verse to an entire doctrine.

It appears that this love of aprobation is confined to "whosoever believeth"

Christiana wrote:
That's the best use of Scripture for refutation of the "world" in its entirety that I have heard.
It would lead to universalism, wouldn't it?

Universal atonement that saves all of creation, or particular atonement of the elect. There is no middle ground.

Mike wrote:
For God so loved the world...
Agapeo is willful love, an action. The love that is affection but does not necessarily include action would be phileo.
God chose to so love the world by giving us his only begotten Son, an action. This doesn't change the meaning of "world."

1Jo 2:15 Love (agapao) not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love (agapee)of the Father is not in him.

Your interpretation of "willful love" and "world" of John 3:16 does damage to 1 John 2:15. Are we not to show willful love to the world?

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

If Jesus came to take away the sins of the world, then how can God condemn anyone of sin? If Jesus came to take away and pay the penalty for everyone’s sin, and people are still going to go to hell for them, then Jesus failed, and God has demanded payment from both parties for the same crime.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Again, If God sent his Son into the world so that the “world” might be saved, then He his will has been thwarted by man. God the Father has also failed.

Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Doctor WOMI wrote:
Calvinism can singlehandedly be refuted with simple, unadulterated, biblical declarative statements like...
"For God so loved the world..."
Trust me, it works.

Pikestaff wrote:
"The opposition Liberals have typically been the party in power, forming the government for most of Canada's 141 years. But the left-of-center vote was divided among four parties, giving an edge to the Conservatives."

I never thought I would thank God for the GREEN PARTY!

Doctor WOMI wrote:
Calvinism can singlehandedly be refuted with simple, unadulterated, biblical declarative statements like...
"For God so loved the world..."
Trust me, it works.

Unless, they have misrepresented the word "Love" and it's meaning in this verse.

Ex. What if I told my daughter that I was going to give her dog away because she was not looking after it. She would respond, "You can't do that because I love my dog" My response would be, "No you don't, you havn't loved (verb) your dog. You havn't taken it for walks, you havn't groomed your dog, you havn't petted your dog.

The word for "so loved" is agapao (verb). In other words, God has shown affection "to" the world, not only the Jews, rather than God having affection "for" the entire world.

God has love "for" the world, He is not "in love with" the world.

Michael Hranek wrote:
rogerant
Respectfully I have provided Scriptural evidence that God loves sinners desiring none to perish.
John 3:16
Romans 5:8
1 Timothy 2:1-4
2 Peter 3:9

For example until you can admit that "the world" in John 3:16 means just that, the world, every man, woman, girl and boy who has ever or will be born into the human race and not redefine it to mean "only the elect"

If you look back to my posts, you will see that I have never said that "the world" in John 3:16 means "only the elect" As a matter of fact I said that God does express "love (verb) TO the world.

Back to Basics wrote:
(Roger is usually civil. Hope was always civil.) He preached all about me and none about the Bible! Shame.
I'll address his tirade as time permits.

BUT AT LEAST HE HAD HIS FACTS RIGHT AND WAS PREACHING THE TRUTH!

You on the other hand, now that you have heard his sermon, have still not come clean, removed your inaccurate sermons and recanted your DISINFORMATION, or may is say

OUTRIGHT LIES!

You are a dishonest man and are not above reproach.

Back to Basics wrote:
And I am truly grateful to be the focal point of each of you. It suggests that the Holy Spirit has struck a nerve, which is not a bad thing.
Mike and I have once again provided ample Scripture to you folks to refute and subtantiate points made. I'm sorry, but you don't get to dimiss Scripture you dont like. One thing for certain that we have not done is quote catechisms, confessions and those who profess themselves to be wise but are fools with darkened hearts (Romans 1:22) who liken God to man and limit His love and redeeming power.Let God be God.
Rog: you really should not get so defesive re: Mike about preaching. That's his calling.

STRUCK A NERVE!!! Yes now you have struck a nerve. The object however to these discussion is for the Holy Spirit to prick the heart by illuminating scripture.

Am I daft, or has anyone else seen the good *Pastor* or "Preacher Mike" post any scriptural support for prevenient grace?

I have seen them post scripture relating to other topics, that is, trying to change the subject to limited atonement, or about God's love.

Somebody help me out here, did I miss something???