B. McCausland wrote: 1. You call your wrong interpretation of the passage *the teaching of Christ* for every one, which is not.
2. Sorry, but unreasonable dialogue or misrepresentation is not going to be further entertained.
1. I have not interpreted the passage.
2. That's okay, it's a free world. Do whatever you want.
3. It is very interesting that when the church was launched by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and every believer was filled with the Spirit, which gave them witnessing power, and enabled them to be guided and led by the Spirit of God, he had the opportunity to lead the church into capitalism but did not do so. Rather he led them in the direction of:
1. Love God
2. Love your neighbour as yourself
The Spirit, in order to achieve this, led them to ensure that no-one went without. If one Christian had a meal, they all had a meal. If one Christian was suffering, they were all suffering together. The church was an organic unity, and it was produced by God, not by man's politics. Anyone who was more wealthy had the opportunity to bless the entire company by giving more to the church. Acts 2:44-47; Acts 4:31-37
B. McCausland wrote: John, you quoted me as stating that "Well if everyone obeyed *the teaching of Christ,* eventually everyone would become poor and society would collapse." The wrong interpretation of that particular verse is what you are calling *the teaching of Christ*. ?!?!?!? Bye
Are you saying that this is not the teaching of Christ:-
Matthew 19:21-25 KJV (21) Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (22) But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. (23) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. (24) And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
No wonder the church is confused, when the words of Jesus Christ are claimed to be different from the teachings of Christ.
Of course, if the Lord Jesus is too radical for some, all they have to do is tone down his words a bit. So then you have no guilt, no hell, no punishment, no need to repent, do whatever you like.
B. McCausland wrote: If all sold everything and gave to meet needs of others you create a number of problems: 1. Depleted capital creates a vacuum causing a society to cave in having to build from scratch. 2. Depraved human state not knowing how to handle personally not earned responsibilities derails into chaos due to lack of basic skills and selfish tendencies. 3. When all the wealth is used up, how do you feed the new chickens to keep people alive? Who would have the means to get a plough to till the land? We could go on and on.
B. McCausland wrote: You are taking things out of context. Never this was inferred as that. My point with this was to demonstrate the folly of your verse interpretation.
Sister, the point of this post is hopefully to show you your error in refusing to accept something you said.
If there is only a small remnant saved (because of election), then it will make no difference to society if they should obey the scripture as literally given.
Of course you can get out of the corner you've driven yourself into by telling me how it is that Jesus said it was virtually impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 19:21-25
She ought to have taken the Bible home, read it, and thoroughly repented of her unbelief, and come to Christ for the forgiveness of her sins and the gift of eternal life, returning to the college a new creature in Christ Jesus, with exceeding joy in her heart for having found a pearl of great price and treasure of inestimable value hidden in a field.
Instead, she remains in her misery and bitterness, angry at herself, angry with the world, always angry, always unhappy. And that is the way she wants it. She refuses to allow herself any joy. She refuses life, and life more abundantly.
WayneR wrote: John is right about trusting in riches, but care is required in judging the rich.
What makes you think that I am not rich?
B. McCausland wrote: The passage you bring about deals with testing one's personal faith and commitment, it is not a precept to be followed as a norm for everybody, besides, if that was the way to interpret it, it would contradict other Scriptures .
Well of course, I could have told you the pat answer myself. It does the rounds in churches, in order to make the rich people happy and prevent them from leaving.
Secondly, perhaps you do not believe in election? You say, "Well if everyone obeyed the teaching of Christ, eventually everyone would become poor and society would collapse."
You really think you can justify that argument? Hmmmm? What about a small remnant? What if a small remnant were to obey the teaching of Jesus Christ? Would that affect the capitalists who love money? Of course not.
Can anyone say? "The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want."
Okay, let every Christian give up their government handouts, and rely solely upon the Lord for their day to day needs. Give up your sickness benefits, state pension, access to NHS, anything communistic.
Matthew 19:21-25 KJV (21)Â Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (22)Â But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. (23)Â Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. (24)Â And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. (25)Â When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
In the world today, this passage of scripture is ignored, especially in the west. People want to go to heaven, but they want their riches in this life as well; it is down to a love of money.
Imagine how powerful money is, that this young fellow preferred it to getting right with God. He is in hell now, along with multitudes of other rich people, because when they tried to get into the kingdom of God with all their banknotes, it was worse than trying to get a camel through the eye of a needle. So says Jesus.
Frank wrote: Pilgrim, I havenât been following this thread but I did note this comment and I agree with your thought. And thanks brother for noting this verse. I do not believe that wealth is a blessing from God. But, I donât believe that loving mammon is âalwaysâ a bank account issue but is always a heart issue. The verse you alluded to fits my thoughts perfectly. The more someone is given of this world, the more they are likely to love this world. So, when our Lord provides for our necessities, but does not give us abundance, is He loving us less than more? Proverbs 30:8 Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:9 Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the Lord? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.
Wa Hey! That is the text I was thinking of bro. And a close study of that verse should counter the imagination of man that he can determine his financial future by hard labour.
Mammon could mean more than merely wealth? Sure, it can be anything or anyone that is loved more than God. As you say it is a heart thing.
Sister B, thank you, but I am not interested in talking politics. Try Jim Lincoln.
My interest is in the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ, and what he says about life and attitude.
For instance he tells us to store up our treasure in heaven. But is he ignored by the majority of professing believers? Sure he is. You've already shown scripture which deals with the rich. But do the rich obey scripture? It is rare.
In my experience, and that of multitudes, if a poor man needs help, it is usually other poor men who will go out of their way to help him, while the rich plan their next foreign holiday.
Sister, you may argue your socks off for the church, that there is no problem with it, but the facts are there and need thinking about. Great blessing there is in giving and giving generously, causing one to deny oneself to achieve it. But spiritual blessings are not sought; rather it is worldly blessings that are sought.
This is an amazement.
And a great puzzlement.
What shall it profit a [capitalist] man, if he gain the whole world and loses his soul?
And within christendom, you have Kenneth Copeland who is worth 300 million dollars, and Joyce Meyer worth around seven million. I'll follow a John Baptist or penniless Jesus Christ anytime.
The Quiet Christian wrote: Where is faith in and from Him turned into love in action?
Quiet Bro, churches here which are genuine are so focussed on justification, that you rarely hear a sermon on practical application which, as you say, is called 'love in action'.
B. McCausland wrote: 1. John, you create rabbit trails. The last example you bring is as from one totally submerged in socialism believing in government entitlement.
2. Due to that even God's elect are destitute of faith. So few know what is to trust God any more, and worse few sense the need to personally get involved helping others
Sister B, 1. To be entitled, one must pay into the pot. State pensions depend wholly on contributions, as do private pensions. However, my whole life is bound up in an Asian country where there is no provision from the guv. So the Christian community there are dependent on other Christians to alleviate their absolute poverty.
2. Yes, you are getting the drift of what I am saying. Christianity does not comprise putting up your hand in a meeting and waiting for the next bus to heaven. It is lifelong service to Jesus Christ and loving neighbour as oneself. This is very rare, and leaders are to blame.
J4 wrote: Good points, accept the part about baptism because without baptism a person does not have Christ and therefore would not be saved. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3:27 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16
I take it you still believe in the only valid baptism being the baptism with the Spirit? And that water baptism is not biblical? So that the baptisms you mention in your post are all Spirit baptisms not water baptisms?
The Quiet Christian wrote: So, yes, you are quite correctly showing what the Lord says to each of us. But that is not the government's proper role to usurp the role of the church.
Thank you Quiet Brother. But let me take you back to an earlier statement concerning things that are happening right now, to real people, in real Wales.
Let us observe a Christian couple running a business on the High Street. Because of the pandemic, they are forced to close the shop or whatever.
Now you are telling me that the state has usurped the role of the church, and it is the state who is helping this Christian couple to stay afloat and possibly get their business going again.
Okay, let us stop the state from doing this, and let us observe what the church is going to do, now it has got its responsibility back.
But who is the church, and where is it? And what will it do when you find it? In theory, it ought to do far better than a secular government. But does it? Have you ever seen it happen? Have you experienced it in your own life when you needed it?
Just a few overnight questions bro, which will help me understand better.
And thank you for your kindness and prayers on my behalf. This is what it's all about.
B. McCausland wrote: John, you are extrapolating a political concept into theology and both fields do not tally, because one is man made the other God designed. They do not compare in terms. "he gives power to make riches" but under the curse is under the terms of the fall: the sweat of your brow. "... Thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth"
Sister B, the passage I am thinking of is in Luke 19:12-27, where Jesus the King gives to men money to start with (without sweat) and expects them to put that money to work (with sweat). It is a most solemn passage of the scripture, and I expect it has more than one spiritual interpretation.
I remember in the OT (someone will know where) that a person asked God not to give him riches lest he forget God, and for God not to make him so poor that he was constrained to steal in order to live.
A man might work hard and be very business-like in all his dealings, make big profits etc. Jesus told us of one such, and he called him a fool for building bigger barns for bigger profits, so that he could take life easy. But that night his soul was required, and God will give that wealth to someone who did not earn it.
Frank wrote: Yes brother, wouldnât that be wonderful! But, it doesnât appear there are presently any who have the gift of healing; you and I agree on this. But, I do believe those that are suffering and desire relief should be able to turn to drugs that relieve pain. But, to play God and murder these folks, with or without their permission is wrong. Euthanasia and assisted suicide are immoral. Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.
Amen bro! Some pain is so severe that some poor folks even take their own life, and that is very sad. If it can be relieved in any way, let us do it, out of compassion for them.
All this week I have been taking Codeine Phosphate for pain in the head, which apparently changes to Morphine in the body and relieves pain. It certainly does, and I am so thankful for it.
Frank wrote: Amen Pilgrim,John from Wales! Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. But if it conflicts with our duty to God, then the below should apply. Acts 5:29 âThen Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.â And the below is the reward you often speak of. Matthew 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Thank you brother and fellow pilgrim. I never tire of reading these texts.
'Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path' Psalm 119:105 NKJV & others.
B. McCausland wrote: John, distribution and redistribution are not the same.
Sister, it depends entirely on how you look at it.
The first distribution is from God to men as individuals. If the man then distributes secondarily to other men, can that not be called re-distribution?
My knowledge of politics is virtually nil, so all of my thinking is based on the Bible for the blueprint truth, and personal experience of other people's politics for what is happening in the real world to me actually.
You can see where a lack of knowledge in a certain area can cause difficulties in a convo? You are aware of the unbiblical practices of socialism and communism, which I am not able to talk about for lack of knowledge. But then, I would rather only talk about what God says, which we might call Christianity or Christian principles which, in my experience, is quite rare, even though the principles are beautiful, being taught by the Lord Jesus himself.
B. McCausland wrote: And by the selling of some other tents he had the money to distribute. This is capitalism "Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate" 1 Tim 6 ". .. labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth."
Amen and precisely, sister. Biblical capitalism involves re-distribution of wealth. Why? Because the wealth does not come from man but God. But I'm sure you have noticed those posters on these threads who hate the very idea, even though the principles are all biblical ones.
There is nothing wrong with rich and poor; but there is something wrong when the rich do not even think about the poor. Note,
Galatians 2:10 KJV (10)Â Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
There are some in our societies that God has a special concern for: the poor, the widow, the orphan. When a man or woman is filled with the Spirit, this concern becomes their concern. Yes indeed.
B. McCausland wrote: A. God may have enough issue with the sins of our Western civilization to cause its downfall. B. True, business cannot flourish with tax oppression, interventions and forbearing regulations.
Sister B, I believe Paul is the ultimate example of correct living and a correct attitude towards money. He served the Lord not money. So when he set up a business making tents by hand, he had no intention of making vast amounts of money and becoming what some call 'filthy rich'. Rather he sold some tents, he bought some food; he sold some tents, he renewed his clothes; he sold some tents, he rented a house. And so on. And some weeks he was abased, and some weeks he prospered.
The billboard by the side of Route 66 reads, "Sing out and go to heaven".
Now there's a place! No restrictions on singing; congregations are massive; there are no republicans or democrats or tories or liberal democrats, no elections, no arguments, no speculatings, no vaccines, no illnesses, no conspiracy theories, no crime, no swearing, no money-grubbers, no unbelievers.......