II Thess. 2:3-5
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

SteveR:
Haven't had a chance to read the first, but the second contains faulty logic along at least two lines:

1) it fails to differentiate between the promises God made to Israel and the promises God made to the church; probably because

2) it fails to recognize God's right to make different promises to different groups of people.

djc49 wrote:
Does that include not having fellowship with those who teach "wrong doctrine" about Christ's Second Coming?

There are many misinformed believers who experience unnecessary anxiety thinking that they will go through the horrors of the day of the Lord. The best thing for such ones is to encourage them to study through II Thessalonians, where Paul addresses that very issue.

djc49 wrote:
There's absolutely nothing wrong or anti-Biblical about denominations coming together based upon TRUTH. As a matter of fact, coming together over biblical truth is required of the faithful regardless of denomination.

1 Co. 1:12-13
"Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

Tony Lopez-Cisneros wrote:
This ISSUE Is About The FACT Of HELL; And ALL Testified-To Facts Or Word-Establishing Testimonies Are AUTHORIZED BIBLICALLY Established & Corroborated On The Testimony Of 2* Or 3* Witnesses.
*1.We Have THE TESTIMONY Of The AUTHORIZED HOLY BIBLE-SCRIPTURES.
*2.The Testimony Of Br. Bill Wiese.
*3.The Testimonies Of Mary K. Baxter & Millions, If NOT Billions Of Others (In Hell Or Heaven &) On Earth !

Tony Lopez-Cisneros wrote:
For Those Who Don't Know About Bill Weise's True, Real-Life & Non-Fiction Book "23 Minutes In Hell"--I'd Recommend That They View His Video On You-Tube & Other Video Websites:
...
But His Personal Experience Sounds Akin To Those Personal Experiences Of Some Pentecostals.

I'm really not at all trying to start an argument, but I must say that my faith is based on the facts presented in the Bible, not the testimony of any man living today.

Personal experience is not the basis of faith. Believing what God says is the only reliable, solid foundation for our faith.

SteveR wrote:
I never said Warren was above criticism, by all means continue to criticze him to your hearts desire. I just wanted to point out neither todays nation state in the mideast or the questionable pastor in CA are not the anointed refered to in that passage.

SteveR wrote:
Davids Psalm of praise incorporates parts of several Psalms, notably Psalm 96. When David refers to 'Anointed' its the same as the anointed in the royal coronation Psalm (Psalm 2). We know this is Christ by the Spirit as Peter prophesied
Acts 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

Let's ignore for now that this passage, though given for our edification in this day of grace, does not directly apply to the church. Even if we were to agree that somehow the anointed in the verse in question ("touch not mine anointed")refers to Christ, how do you go from there to agreeing with Paul H that we'd all better stop criticizing Rick Warren?

Paul H. wrote:
Beware that you don't touch God's anointed.

It was when David brought back the ark of the covenant from the house of Obededom to Jerusalem. This verse is from his psalm of praise to God when the ark was placed again in the tabernacle. The "anointed" referred to is plainly the nation Israel.

1 Chron. 16:20-22 (see also Ps. 105)
"And when they went from nation to nation, and from one kingdom to another people; He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes, Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm."

Now, I am not disputing that God loves the church and those to whom the Lord Jesus has given gifts, but is this promise for us today? Or is this the more appropriate verse?

John Paul wrote:
Mr. Dispy
Are you saying that scripture teaches that Christians should not be involved in government, military and public service?

Luke 3:14
"And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages."

What did Paul tell us?

1 Co. 7:20-24
"Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant. Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men. Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God."

So, if you are called out of the world and find yourself in such a profession, Paul says be content with that. If you are a young Christian just beginning in your career, seek the Lord's will for your life. There is no rule against such employment that I know of.

JOHN PAUL wrote:
...

2. If you allow Christ to live through you, individuals you encounter (and therefore society) will encounter Christ, and it will have an impact.

3. I am practicing what I believe is true when I act as though my vote counts for very little since all the candidates are either unregenerate or very weak Christians. I know that God will accomplish what he wills through whomever is in office. See Ez. 7:27; Prov. 21:1; Dan. 11:27; Ro. 13.

4. "Just preaching"?

1 Co. 1:18,20-24
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. ...
Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. ... But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, ... Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Mike wrote:
Bro. John, if I am to avoid eyestrain looking for New Age doctrines in the NASB, I'll need some help. I seem to be having trouble finding them.

Neil wrote:
"Dispensational theology calls for separation from the world, not involvement in its politics."
So would Mr. Dispy object if I proposed cancellation of US subsidies for Israel (and other US "client states")?

My God is so rich and so powerful that I can say without hesitation that he will subsidize everything he intends to accomplish in this world. In fact, he will not only pay for it, he will do it by his power and grace. My confidence is in him, not in the governments of this world.

John Paul:
Your assertion that I propose doing nothing ignores what I said earlier. We are not to do nothing, we are to preach the gospel and stand for the truth. The problem with those who have a low view of God and / or weak faith is that they believe God needs help from them at every turn.

John Paul wrote:
Our constitutional (our way of life) needs to be defended. Freedom is bought with blood! If anyone knows this, it would be the Christian that understands it the clearest. Dispensational theology has created such an escapest mentality in Christianity that you can't even tell the church from the world.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Jesus is the way, not the constitution.

2. Real freedom is bought with Jesus' blood, not the blood of patriots.

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

That must be a disappointing statement to you, but even the NIV gets pretty close to the right translation of that verse.

3. Dispensational theology calls for separation from the world, not involvement in its politics. Do you even read the words you write? How does forming pressure groups to change the world's policies separate you from the world?

John Paul's wife wrote:
My God calls me to stand up to bullies no matter what level of government they bully their way into. What one may call legitimate government, God may say "phoopah". Christians need to speak up. And if you feel like God doesn't want you to, well, support the one who does! Cuz theological concepts like, "God is going to pull my whole church out of this, magically, just when things get tough for MEEEE!" can really be a form of complacency. Love isn't complacent.

It takes a lot more courage to speak against evil and not retaliate when the wicked revile and persecute us for it, than it does to plot revolution in backwoods militia camps based on a political document written by men who were not all Christians.

All the powers that be are ordained of God, including the wicked rulers.

Mike wrote:
A bit of confusion on who is government. Under the US Constitution, which IS the law governing the US, the PEOPLE are the government.(remember Lincoln's government of, by, for the people?) Those we hire to do the job of MANAGING (presidents, representatives, senators, etc) are EMPLOYEES, not rulers. That job belongs to the people. Employees obey rulers, not the other way around.

More importantly, are "the people" the same as the "higher powers" that Paul refers to? If so, how can we be subject to ourselves?

Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Gordan wrote:
Jim Lincoln, your comment about there being no Biblical support for an armed uprising against tyranny is wonderful...except for the fact of the whole book of Judges. More armed uprisings against tyrants than some commenters here have teeth, I'd wager.

There are three kinds of people in God's economy: Jews, Gentiles, and the children of God. When a Jew becomes a Christian, he gives up the privileges and obligations of being a Jew under the Law. When a Gentile becomes a Christian, he forfeits the benefits of earthly power that the Gentiles have enjoyed ever since the Babylonian captivity, when the times of the Gentiles began.

Citing Judges as an excuse for rebellion against the government constituted by God does not negate the numerous commands Christians are given in the NT to obey the government. The only exception is still when we are commanded to do something contrary to God's will, or forbidden to do something God requires of us.

So, pay your taxes and let God have his way with this wayward nation through the Obama administration.

TT wrote:
Amen, Jim and Rob. Get ready, people; it's coming here.

Hidemi Williges wrote:
Luk 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Swine flu - Mexicans
Bird flu - Chinese
Plague - Europeans (Killed more American Indians than warfare)
Why blame these individual groups for these diseases, when we are all to blame. Remember, it all comes from the fall of Adam. We as Christians should not blame or fear such things.
I, for one am not going to let the government dictate to me, how to run my household. You can't do this, you can't do that. There will be no immunizations here.