Lurker wrote:
JD? Is that you?

Did you think about what you wrote before you posted it, Alan?

What I am hearing you say is that it's perfectly acceptable for you to defend omnipresence from the garden account and 1 Kings 8:27 in the days of King Solomon and it's OK for others to appeal to "1Kings 8:27, Isaiah 66:1, Acts 7:48,49, Psalm 139:7-12, Jer 23:23,24, Acts 17:27,28" and what ever else they can glean from their favorite doctor's writings but you would deny me the same latitude to oppose omnipresence.

Lurker wrote:
What will you do with.....

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go [to be] among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God [is] not among us? (Deut 31:16-17)

I will go [and] return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early. (Hosea 5:15)

Will you tell me they don't teach omnipresence therefore are irrelevant? Of course they don't teach it! They, and many others, refute it!

This is the very first use of the phrase "the presence of the LORD God" in the Scriptures. I think this is very significant, and if we pass by this without any consideration we will misunderstand a great deal about the divine attributes of God. I had begun speaking about this passage in my earlier post, dated 12/13/09 2:29 AM. This is such a marvelous event. Don't you see God purposefully condescending to the level of His creatures to commune with them? This is a glorious expression of God's character. Of the circumstances we all notice, but the fact that God condescended must not be overlooked, for this is but first of many instances recorded in the Scriptures for us. We see the greatest expression and fulfillment of this in the person of Jesus Christ, Immanuel, God with us.

After Adam and Eve had eaten the forbidden fruit, the Bible says that their eyes were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. Then we are told:

“And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I [was] naked; and I hid myself.” Gen. 3:8-10

Alan H wrote:
Secondly, you claim reverence for the Scriptures and then you would applaud the misuse of them by Mike to disprove God's omnipresence?

Mike wrote:
Alan, if I have caused you offense, I am sorry, it was surely not my purpose. In accordance with the discussion, I thought it reasonable to ask the questions in light of what those verses say. It seems difficult to argue with what they say, and if you read the questions again, I would appreciate knowing how these very basic questions derived from them somehow misuses the Scriptures. Are some questions simply verboten? Or is it that they cannot be answered in a way that will agree with certain presuppositions?

After quoting Job 1:12 (see also Job 2:7 & Gen. 4:16), you ask, "Did Satan leave the presence of the LORD or not?" That verse says so, but I would ask you this, where was the LORD when Satan entered into His presence? Was the Lord God entirely confined to that immediate location?

Lurker wrote:
Alan,
What should grieve you is the fact that you don't have an infallible bible in your hands. By your own admission, you have imposed a presupposition on God's written word and because of that you can't accept the consequences of the verses Mike posted nor can you answer a simple question. In your own words...."A dart through the heart of God's Deity!" Mike didn't author those verses, Alan. God did and He can't oppose Himself.

You need to set aside your emotions and give your approach to the holy bible some serious thought and prayer and make a decision regarding who or what will be your final authority; who or what you will serve with all your heart, that is, unless it's already too late in which case you will never have an infallible bible.

First of all, that presupposition which I mentioned is not based upon empty premise, as you would suggest, implying that I have no foundation for it, but upon the fact that God plainly reveals Himself in the Scripture, in its entirety, as "infinite" without limitations. The very name "GOD" is questionable by YOUR assigning Him imperfection.

John Owen - "Of the Nature of God"

Note: The words in brackets were italicized in the original.

1 Kings 8:27 (King James Version)

John UK wrote:
It stacks up Mike

Which shall you attack next, using the Scriptures in an illegitimate manner? Perhaps His omnipotence, or His omniscience? Or perhaps you'll enter the field of His moral attributes as well.

You are clearly denying the omnipresence of God simply because you cannot RATIONALIZE how God can be everywhere, when that everywhere may include the hearts of wicked men. Listen, guys, we must at times accept things we cannot fully understand, when they are taught within the Scriptures. You cannot and must not reject that essential attribute of God, but rather reject your limited comprehension of it. In your efforts to keep God from being defiled by sin, which He cannot be, you undermine the very essence and nature of God. Don't you know that this is the very same method that cults use to deny fundamental doctrines, i.e. "IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!"

Omnipresent: "present everywhere at the same time." (RHD)

John UK wrote:
Hi Alan
You made a lot of points there, many of which are not true bro. Let me just speak out and you can see why.

#5 The Trinity means THREE, not four.

John UK wrote:
#6 Did God give himself yet another spirit when he became incarnate?

John UK wrote:
#7 In the New Testament, the terms 'the Spirit of Christ' and 'the Spirit of God' are used for the one selfsame Spirit.

"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:" Matt. 3:16

[URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1127092115301]]] "Manhattan Declaration: Manifesto of Treason" by Pasto Ralph Ovadal[/URL]

John UK wrote:
Hi Alan
You made a lot of points there, many of which are not true bro. Let me just speak out and you can see why.

#1 If our Lord Jesus on earth was equal in all points with Father God, why did he get tired, need food and drink?

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in —Christ Jesus—: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:..." Philippians 2:5-7

I did not make that distinction between his humanity, as you have done and continue to do, focusing only upon His humanity; nevertheless, the scriptures agree with what I said.

John UK wrote:
#2 Before incarnation, the Son of God was Spirit.

John UK wrote:
#3 At incarnation, the human did not become indwelt with the divine.

#4 At incarnation, the Spirit (the Son of God) took to himself flesh. "He wrapped him in our clay".

John UK wrote:
Tell me, was the incarnate God omnipotent? Mmmmmm? Oh.....and another thing concerning Frenchy. How does he maintain that Christ remained in heaven when incarnated in flesh? In what form? Spiritually? Oh but of course spiritually!!!

Lurker wrote:
Alan,

The more I think about your recent posts on this thread the more confused and frustrated I have gotten trying to understand your objection.

In your original comments to Satch, to which you refer, dated 12/2/09 8:23 PM, you say, "Goodness, Satch! Jesus lay three days and nights in hell (the grave, heart of the earth (Matt 12:40, cf. Acts 2:31) never to return again." I am not sure what you mean by the phrase "never to return again." I assume that means, "return to the grave..." No matter!

Anyway, then in your post dated 12/3/09 10:00 PM you say to Satch: "Doesn't your favorite doctor of systematic theology have anything to say about the second death which is eternal separation from the presence of God in the lake of fire? Btw, hell is the grave, not the lake of fire."

Lurker wrote:
As Alan rightly pointed out, hell has many attributes and none should knowingly be excluded but one thing it is not is the place of "12/3/09 7:50 PM Satch Chikhlia; "torment without end..."".

What you are proposing gives countenance to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, i.e. that there is an "intermediate" state for the departed, in which souls await that final judgement for their sins.

In that parable in Luke 16, concerning the rich man and Lazarus, when they died one was immediately received into a state of blessing and the other was cast into the torments of hell. There was no intermediate state mentioned by Jesus Christ in the parable.

To clarify what you are saying I'd like to ask you a couple of questions.

1. Do you believe there currently exists an intermediate place of the dead, as you seem to suggest?

June wrote:
As far as evil rulers go, are they not too in the end accountable to God, rather than us? God will at last judge the quick and the dead! Vengeance is of the Lord!

I hadn't even really considered that fact. If rulers believed that, wouldn't they be a great deal more fearful when it comes to making unjust and un-biblical laws? It is exactly for this very reason, i.e. they have very little respect for and fear of the people, that they mandate so many ungodly statutes contrary to God's will. May God help us, by renewing His fear within ours hearts and the hearts of those who rule over this nation again, or there is no escaping the consequences...

"Now these [be] the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man [who was] raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said, The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word [was] in my tongue. The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men [must be] just, ruling in the fear of God." 2 Samuel 23:1-3

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness." 1 Cor. 3:19

Here we go again! How much good can these skeptics do, who think that God's Word is subject to the determinations of men? Whenever such an attempt is made it only spreads the seeds of skepticism. Where is the simple faith which believes "thus saith the Lord..." and "it is written"? It's just not present... The more men look for natural causes to try to explain and define God's Word and revelation the more they approach the Devil's crowning achievement, which is turning men into hell bound atheists.

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them." Isa. 8:20

"Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not [in him] the lips of knowledge." Prov. 14:7

Lurker wrote:
Doesn't your favorite doctor of systematic theology have anything to say about the second death which is eternal separation from the presence of God in the lake of fire? Btw, hell is the grave, not the lake of fire.

"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." Luke 16:23-24

"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." Matt. 18:9

"[Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" Matt. 23:33