John UK wrote:
I cannot believe it possible to have a conversion experience and go on in habitual sin.
It may be that he heard a defective gospel message, such as easy-believism, or 'say the sinner's prayer - now you're saved' sort of thing. But praise God he is now saved, as you see the difference in his life.
I'd like to listen to some of John MacArthur, as I expect he spells out the call to discipleship, counting the cost etc.

Thanks for the post back.

Yes, I agree with what you say. It just seems odd that a Christian would hold to such a testimony - with the intervening years of one's supposed 'new birth' lived in an obviously ungodly way.

So many people hold to that 'decision' made at a point in time, or an 'aisle walked', or even an emotional experience, with no real change as evidence of salvation.

Yes, John MacArthur has addressed this issue. I was thankful to hear him say, what you and I believe to be true; namely, that it is not possible to have a conversion experience, and to live a life of habitual sin.

I know a man, now a Christian, as evidenced by his transformed life, whose testimony is that he was 'born again' when he was a young man; however, he went on to live a life of debauchery, which led to a near- death experience. It was after that that his life changed.

I cannot believe that he was born again, and then lived like he did for decades. I know that he is a Christian now. I think that he came to know the Lord when he almost died.

However, he says differently.

Do you think it is possible for one to be born again and live in sin for decades?

Since Scripture validates that 'regeneration' means 'new birth', and, we know that the distinguishing mark of the 'new birth' is 'faith', it stands to reason that one does not precede the other. They occur at the same time. Simultaneously.

FAITH has always been the MARK of God's people, from the beginning of time. Chronicled in the pages of Scripture, from Genesis onward, and summarized in Hebrews 11, the people of God are the people of FAITH. I don't see how there can be any separation in the 'new birth' and 'faith.'

Saving faith = new birth

"I say it is that change of heart which is the distinguishing mark of a true Christian man, the invariable companion of a justifying faith in Christ, the inseparable consequence of vital union with Him, and the root and beginning of inward sanctification."

"Some hold that regeneration only means admission into a state of ecclesiastical privileges - being made a member of the Church - but does not mean a change of heart. Some tell us that a regenerate man has a certain power within him which enables him to repent and believe if he thinks fit, but that he still needs a further change in order to make him a true Christian. Some say there is a difference between regeneration and being born again. Others say there is a difference between being born again and conversion."

"To all this I have one simple reply, and that is, I can find no such regeneration spoken of anywhere in the Bible. . .Such a notion of regeneration is utterly inconsistent with that which St. John gives us in his first Epistle. It renders it necessary to invent the awkward theory that there are two regenerations, and is thus eminently calculated to confuse the minds of unlearned people, and introduce false doctrine."

"[Regeneration is] a great radical change of heart and nature - a thorough alteration and transformation of the whole inner man, a participation in the resurrection life of Christ, or, to borrow the words of the Church Catechism, 'a death unto sin and a new birth unto righteousness'."

"This change of heart in a true Christian is so complete that no word could be chosen more fitting to express it than that word 'regeneration' or new birth. Doubtless it is no outward, bodily alteration, but undoubtedly it is an entire alteration of the inner man. It adds no new faculties to a man's mind, but it certainly gives an entirely new bent and bias to all his old ones. His will is so new, his taste so new, his opinions so new, his views of sin, the world, the Bible, and Christ so new, that he is to all intents and purposes a new man. The change seems to bring a new being into existence. It may well be called 'being born again'."

"This change is not always given to believers at the same time in their lives. Some are born again when they are infants, and seem, like Jeremiah and John the Baptist, filled with the Holy Ghost even from their mother's womb. Some few are born again in old age.. . "

John UK wrote:
Candle Lit, if you are able, can you post up some quotes from my favourite author JCR on regeneration?

"...true Christians are what they are, because they are regenerate, and formal Christians are what they are, because they are not. The heart of the Christian in deed has been changed. The heart of the Christian in name only has not been changed. The change of heart makes the whole difference."

And, then, he goes on to quote Scripture: 'a taking away the stony heart and giving an heart of flesh' Ezek. 11:19

'a giving a new heart, and a putting within us a new spirit' Ezek. 36:26

The Apostle John calling it 'born of God'; 'born again'; 'born of the Spirit' (John 1:13;3:3,6).

The Apostle Peter calling it 'repenting and being converted' (Acts 3:19)

in Romans 'being alive from the dead' (Rom 6:13)

'being a new creature, old things having passed away, and all things become new' (2 Cor.5:17)

'you hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins' (Eph. 2:1)

and others, all of which he says are expressions of the "same truth only viewed from different sides. And all have one and the same meaning. They describe a radical change of heart and nature

DJC49 wrote:
You make a slight but fatal mistake, *Candle lit*
In monergism, it's NOT that man does not cooperate or respond AT ANY TIME, but rather that he can NOT cooperate UNTIL he is regenerated by the Spirit! ... after which time he then fully cooperates by coming to a saving faith with repentance.

Why is there so much attention on ordering these components of salvation?

It's kinda like trying to separate the heart from the circulatory system, and the respiratory system. We can describe them separately, but they only work as designed when the body is taking in oxygen, and blood is being pumped throughout the body. It all works together as was intended by our Creator.

That being said, I understand what you are saying, and I can agree with it up to a point. I'm in total agreement that salvation is all of the Lord, but I beg to differ on man being passive in the process.

Definitions wrote:
Monergism: "In theol., The doctrine that the Holy Spirit is the only efficient agent in regeneration - that the human will possesses no inclination to Christ or holiness until regenerated, "
Synergism: "In theol., the doctrine that there are two efficient agents in [that are necessary as precursors for] regeneration, namely the human will and the divine Spirit, which, in the strict sense of the term, cooperate. In this view, faith precedes new birth (or regeneration)."

OTOH, Synergism may not explain the work of God in Salvation PERFECTLY, but it is Biblical. The work of the Spirit, produces repentance and saving faith which is the new birth.

pew view wrote:
As we were discussing the saving of Cornelius at this juncture, do you mean by using the verse above, the NT Gospel alone? Because if you establish that this verse relates to the NT Gospel then what "faith" did the OT saints get saved by?

Of course, the Gospel was given in the Garden to Adam and Eve, after the fall, and before a child was born. That was the HOPE that would be promulgated down through the ages through a people chosen for that purpose, to give to us the written Word of God as a testimony, and the Living Word, the Messiah.

The Gospel was visually depicted through the Jewish people in their temple worship, the blood of the Lamb sacrificed for the sins of the people. It was proclaimed through the Prophets, Isaiah most poignantly, and even in the Psalms, specifically Psalm 22 depicting even the sacrificial death of the Saviour on the Cross.

Of course, all the shadows and types and proclamations in the OT came to fruition when Jesus came on the scene.

BUT, there was always and only ONE Gospel!

John UK wrote:
If Jesus used the illustration of natural birth to describe the spiritual birth, is it beyond the bounds of probability that a spiritual birth is the completion not the initialisation?

Could it be there has to be a conception followed by some growth towards birth. And could it be that this conception is a sovereign work of God in the soul some time before the birth itself?

Joe T. wrote:
.....and predetermined to be saved before the foundation of the world, but was saved in that point in time upon the hearing of the Word.

DJC49 wrote:
Adam's sin was one of rebellion. He wanted autonomy from God so as to be a god-unto-himself. Self-centered rather than God centered. I don't think we inherited his *specific* sin, but we inherited Adam's *sin nature*, and because of it, we are all condemned regardless if we never commit a single sin of our own. We're "born rebels;" Corrupt from the crib ... and that INCLUDES our will.

It is "who" we are, apart from God. It is our will that is in opposition to God. Some are very willful, and others, less willful, but we are all willful. We want to do what we want to do, when we want to do it, AND, we do not want anyone to oppose our will.

This willfulness is evident from the time the baby enters the world, demanding attention, and continues unabated, until God intervenes.

The parent can train the child, so that the child becomes "civilized", but only the Holy Spirit can break that stubborn rebellious heart and bring it into submission.

I think of the verse in Psalms that says, ". . like a weaned child, on his mother's breast, my soul is at rest."

John UK wrote:
God blessed those words on the side of the Gospel Hall in Harlesdon as part of his drawing me to Jesus. Sure, I was unable to comprehend, but the Lord made use of memorised scripture later in life.

The one who formed us in the womb of our mothers, and who knew all our days, before there were any, has providentially arranged all the encounters that would lead us to Him. If the work is all His, and it is, why should He not act on our behalf all along the way?

I remember a Sunday School teacher giving me the book by Charles M. Sheldon, "In His Steps." That was in the '60's, and, as a young girl, the book shaped my thinking about day to day living.

About that same time period, I observed my best friend's young mother dying of cancer. Though she suffered with great pain, she set the standard, as far as I was concerned, for "how" a Christian should die. She was a godly woman, and her countenance was radiant even in death. She did not resist death, and she did not complain. I still remember her smile.

I was being shaped by God, though I was not yet a christian.

The point that I was making with the training of children who are are not saved is this: If you are to be consistent in your supposition that "we are dead in trespasses and sins, and, therefore incapable of doing anything until God saves us," why are we commanded to train up our unsaved children in the ways of the Lord?

If those children are incapable of understanding anything spiritual, why have them pray, read their Bibles, fear the Lord. Using this line of reasoning, you would wait until God saves them. Training in the Lord would be futile because these children are dead spiritually. You can't awaken them. They cannot possibly understand spiritual things. They cannot respond because they are dead - corpses -incapable of absorbing any Christian principles. They are incapable of doing any act that would please God, so the parent should just wait until God ZAPS them. Then, training can begin.

lyn wrote:
candlelit claims, 'pre-Holy Spirit intervention, much can be done on the part of mortal man...'
This seems in direct opposition with Ephesians 2:1, 'As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins'.
If scripture is true, and it is, then how can a spiritually dead sinner respond positively to the things of God?

Rarely, do I disagree with your posts, and I do not disagree with this one - for the most part. Where you say that man can do nothing towards his own salvation, I would even agree with that, BUT, there's more to your statement - the implication that man is incapable of doing anything, and Scripture refutes that, vociferously. Read any of the Gospels, again, as a book. The call to repentance, the following after Jesus, the sitting at His feet, the taking in of the Word, were all necessary in the process. Man is not in TOTAL darkness up until the point He is in an INSTANT brought into the Light. He begins to see with eyes, perhaps like the man who was blind, and Jesus touched him. His sight was still fuzzy, and Jesus touched his sight again, and then, his vision was clear.

John UK wrote:
For myself, as a ten-year-old, I remember climbing into the attic at home especially to play with a wind-up gramaphone, and play records. One of them was Handel's Messiah, and I specifically remember listening with interest to the song, beautifully sung, "He shall feed his flock, like a shepherd..." I now know it was from Isaiah 40:11, but I puzzled about the wonderful shepherd and who he was. Now I am fed by him, praise God.

And, who can read Psalm 139 and not be overwhelmed at the work of the Lord in the womb of the woman on the child conceived?

"For thou hast possessed my reins; thou has covered me in my mother's womb.

Sola Gratia wrote:
PRE-Holy Spirit intervention, the mortal can do absolutely zero to know God and Truth.

Thanks be to God for my 5th grade teacher who had the class memorize Psalm 100. I was not saved at that point, but those words sunk deep into my heart, and I LOVED them. When the Big Bang theory was being taught, those words enabled me - a child - to reject man's lies and I am convinced that it was because I believed what God said in His Word.

"Make a joyful noise
unto the LORD, all ye lands.

Serve the LORD with gladness; come before HIs presence with singing.

Know ye that the LORD He is God: it is He that hath made us, and not we ourselves;

we are His people, and the sheep of His pasture.

Enter into His gates with thanksgiving, and into His courts with praise:

be thankful unto Him, and bless His name.

For the LORD is good; His mercy is everlasting; and His truth endureth to all generations."

John UK wrote:
Is it possible that a man who is spritually dead, and not yet born again (as Cornelius in Acts 10) can understand that Jesus is from God?
I think yes, especially as both Cornelius and Nicodemus were both born again in due time.

And, in addition to Cornelius and Nicodemus as examples, I am reminded of the centurion and those who were keeping guard over Jesus, on the Cross, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"

Another favorite of mine is Spurgeon's "Morning and Evening." For years, I have used this devotional to set the tone for the beginning and ending of my day. My copy is falling apart.

Of course, "Foxe's Book of Martyrs" is both humbling and inspiring, and should be in everyone's library.

Christians are blessed by the testimonies of others, and every day I am thankful for men and women who have left a legacy to encourage us. Some of my best friends are with the LORD, and though I never knew them in the flesh, I know them through their writings, and look forward to celebrating with them, one day.