I think much of these government prayers are just empty pious acts, and too many Americans think the leaders somehow mediate between them and God by this anyway. It all looks nice and gives the average person a cozy secure feeling(yet a false security). Prayer and salvation are between each person and God. It is also extremely ecumenical, like another person posted and God is not there anyway because God says he will not share his glory with any other.
Article: "Mohler says, 'The moment someone begins to define God's [being or actions] biblically, that person is drawn to conclusions that are traditionally classified as Calvinist.'"
Yep, I came to this conclusion also, particularly relating to God's being and actions. If a person defines God's being and actions biblically and tests all experience on the Bible only, then this person is using Reformed principles. How much this is needed in today's world where so many are falling for the latest fads in experience supposedly from God.
It is not right to compromise with others especially if others are obeying a teaching contrary to the Scriptures. I have found out this past weekend how vivid this is when I heard an evangelist at a church I visited say "the voice of the Holy Spirit" told him to hit somebody to heal them and the evangelist obeyed the voice. I can't unite with people who tolerate that! It is contrary to what God has said in the Bible about healing and miracles and to unite with them or support them is wrong. They must be disfellowshipped in the hope that they will repent.
Thanks for the info. If plans show that I will be here for longer than just this Spring, I will look into this. There are some other good Protestant churches here. Even the Estonian Pentecostal Church seems quite stable compared to these other charismatic folks.
Thank you takeheed for the idea and the website. There is quite a void here in Estonia and the most radical charismatics are raking in a harvest here. Like I said in my first post, if anybody knows of Reformed Protestants who know the Estonian language(or even Russan for that matter), come and preach here. It is sad to see them sit in a church that harbors these ministers. Estonians have struggled hard for freedom and many good Protestant preachers from here were exiled in the soviet period and Estonia's profession of Christianity dropped from 90% to 20%. To see them get deceived by these charismatic ministers is sad....giving up their hard earned money and freedom to these kind of people.
Thanks DJC for the input. I am open to opinions on how to deal with this. Like I said, this was rather unexpected. I have never heard her answer to me so angrily before as when I said I would not seek the counsel of such people who say God tells them to hit others. That alone has me concerned. I think this violence started with Todd Bentley. A few people and myself discussed him a long time ago about the same issue on SermonAudio and at that time I determined he was not hearing God's voice. It sounds like this Guy Peh is the successor since Bentley divorced and remarried a ministry partner and then resigned..an absolute disgrace in the name of the Holy Spirit of the all holy God. I know where I stand and will not alter my belief on this matter. This is a tenet of faith and practice which cannot be compromised.
There is more, Prince Charles.... My girlfriend suggested to go to hear Mr. Peh. My girlfriend is rather charismatic in beliefs and practice, but not like I imagined after this meeting. Later she talked about how powerful the meeting was and talked about God telling this evangelist to hit the sick person to heal. I asked my girlfriend "Do you believe it was God who said to Mr. Peh to hit the person?" She said yes. I sat silent and then said "I wouldn't go to a minister to be hit if I was sick." My girlfriend answered rather angrily "Oh yes you would." She said "Jesus used mud to heal. And the woman who Mr. Peh hit was healed." "Yes,true" I said and remained silent. I am now reasoning if I can live with this kind of belief system under the same roof and whether to allow this to be practiced by my family if we were to get married. It would be my duty not to sit silent but to explain why I believe differently and see where things go from there. There is no compromise. I will not go to sit in a meeting even silently tuned out while my wife and kids are getting knocked over before my eyes because some self ordained evangelist said the Holy Spirit told him to hit them!
Sure, I can elaborate. Where to start... One of my friends is the youth pastor in that charismatic church. He has connections with this evangelist. I haven't been silent about the meeting, telling this friend some of my impressions of the evangelist's behavior. Needless to say, I feel awkward, but God is comforting me and I feel He has confirmed my position on the matter. I need prayer for support and discernment. This is not easy, but necessary and important.
Then there was a time for requesting unusual miracles and it seems this was a time for the people to receive power from Mr. Peh to do unusual miracles or to receive an unusual miracle(I suppose like hitting people to heal or whatever..certainly unusual). Did Jesus ever say Christians would do unusual miracles? Did the Apostles teach this? No! What exactly defines an unusual miracle? Greater things, yes, but unusual? Nope. So people came forward and Mr. Peh and his wife were saying something and laying hands on the people and people fell over. Some appeared hurt after the experience. Then Mr. Peh called for testiomonies. Two or three testified, but nothing unusual...the same as the typical charismatic TV show. Sad! "If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Please, folks, discern the spirits with an open Bible. Interesting how these traveling ministers and their followers believe in many gifts of the Holy Spirit but if one is discerning the spirits(also a gift) and proving things(also an exhortation), these people get on the defensive. Mr. Peh also said manipulation is witchcraft, but he was quite manipulative himself "If you don't shout, I am going to shake you...Hello, I said Hello! If you don't like a pastor, get over it!"
I think there is one in Tallinn...maybe affiliated with the Reformed Church in America. I would have to check this to verify it. Yep, this is upsetting news and experience I had today. You can check out this fellow who was here: www.guypeh.com He seemed rather innocent until he got to the part about him obeying "the Holy Spirit" telling him to hit people. "If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Not much light in that service...the typical ultracharismatic frenzy and manipulation, people falling over(some appeared hurt or struggling to get up), etc...and the money business too...a little sermon and prayer about money and then the bucket goes around. Actually I have local regular fellowship here in a local Lutheran church. I was just out visiting today. Some friends of mine attend this charismatic place.
Yes, in Estonia. Only about 20% profess Christianity and probably a much smaller percentage of devout believers. This place is ripe soil for missions and the Estonians are falling prey easily to the latest "moves of God." I can't believe how people actually think this stuff is amusing or divinely sent. This is what happens when revelation and experience is taken at face value without knowledge of the Scriptures. Sad sad sad! I won't be participating in that church again. It is affiliated with Word of Life in Sweden and they have connections with the most popular charismatic teachers from the United States. I am a U.S. citizen studying over here.
Yep, no biblical world view...no biblical view period! When you have such silliness as "evangelists" saying God told them to hit somebody for healing, it's no wonder. What a disgrace and false spirit and I never would have thought I'd actually find myself in the midst of such a one until it happened today. Any strict Reformed folks want to get over here to Estonia before it is overtaken by this false movement? Hurry up. The void is big and the latest charismatic characters are raking in a harvest here of wondering souls still recovering from past oppression. We had Tod Bently claiming this "hit to heal" show and now the new one is Guy Peh(who is in Estonia at this time and who I heard today in person. As soon as he said that God told him to hit a cancer victim and he obeyed this command, I tuned out and patiently waited for the service to end.
Sure, it might be genuine, but around whom was it wrapped? So many people are putting their faith elsewhere instead of on the crucified and risen Christ and his finished work of Calvary. It is like the crippled man who couldn't get to the pool to be healed, but the Apostles declared "In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, arise and walk!" Look to Him and be saved and healed in body, soul and spirit.
No surprise, since it seems many modern evangelicals are not taught the foundations of their faith or refuse to see this as important and value ecumenical connections with compromise. I think a lot of them simply don't know why they believe what they believe to be true and important. If I was a pastor, I'd be teaching them the important basics of evangelical/protestant doctrine: faith alone, scripture alone, grace alone, Christ alone, to the glory of God alone--why do we believe these to be true and why it is paramount to hold to these untainted with other doctrine. Instead of running to the Roman Catholic and so called Orthodox churches, we should be witnessing to them why we believe what we believe.