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Now this is a passage specifically to the gentiles and he has chosen them to salvation FROM THE BEGINNING.

Now, we must try to understand "the beginning". We will look at it later.

The gentiles were not said to be elect in any OT passage which was the first 4000 years of human history. Someone was said to be elect in the OT but it was not the gentiles. We need to look at who they are.

In Isa 42:1, it is the Messiah who will come to Israel.

In Is 45:4, it is the collective nation of Israel, the sons of Jacob. Ditto for Is 65:2, 22.

This word is used only 13 times in the OT and since it includes all Israel, the elect includes a majority of unjustified people. So, some of the elect are not even saved!

Proof:

Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

But what about the gentiles in the OT? Were they elect?

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

I want you to compare these two passages and see that electing to salvation could not be accomplished in the eternal past.

First passage:
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1Co 1:9 God [is] faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

The second passage

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now I want you to meditate and study on these passages and then tell me why your position on election cannot be true according to the information we are given in these passages.

We actually have the phrase "chosen you to salvation" in 2 Th 2:13. I suggest you look at the method of God's choosing the gentile Christians and for what purpose.

Then

Quoting Spurgeon does not make particlar calling and particlar election any more true. He was just as much in error on the subject as you.

The invitation of Scripture does not support your doctrine of particlar calling and particular election. The language is always "whosoever" will may come. God sent the apostles to the whole world with the gospel message. Paul, in explaining the great doctrines of the faith in Romans described a solution for sin and damnation as great as the need.

Speaking of the Jews it is said "many are called and few are chosen". Anyone can see that calling comes first and someone before you and me noticed that and so, to fix the problem it caused them, invented two callings, which is ridiculous. If only particular men were chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world the statement would be thus: "Few are chosen but many are called". Then there would need to be some explanation why he would call those who were not chosen.

Justification, an act of God of declaring men righteos, always through history did it on the basis of men believing what he said. Abraham believed God AND it was counted to him for righteosness.

DJC49 wrote:
JD, there's really nothing relevant to our discussion to comment on concerning Acts 13:46. What would you have me say? It's evident from the verse that Paul understood the prescription: "to the Jew first, then the Gentile." And Paul notes that the Jews rejected the Gospel. So?

Now, concerning Acts 18:10. Do you know how many years had passed before Paul showed up in Corinth in Acts 18? Do you actually think that no one was saved in that city except Paul's converts?

Ac 18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome) and came unto them.

Or The confirmed effectual calling of His chosen people to Christ according to the will OF GOD.

DJC49 wrote

I don't know about YOUR God, JD, but my God doesn't gamble whatsoever. He's sovereign. He ordains. He chooses from all eternity His good pleasure.

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Can someone tell me why God needs to convince the elect by the agency of "signs" if he has an "effectual" call for them that they cannot resist?

These men who are propagating this lunacy actually have rather high IQ's.

Then, to top it off, you failed to even comment on this verse lest it make a liar out of you.

Ac 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Both verbs in Verse 48 is in the past tense.

Try this verse literally:

The key to this verse DJC49, is that they "believed". Otherwise this would be the standard verse for how one is saved for the whole bible and it just does not square with what is said about believing AND being saved in all the places it is mentioned. Therefore, your understanding of this verse that one who is preordained to eternal life then believed is in great error.
This is the peril of attempting to interpret the Scripture in the context of ones theological preference. Shame on you actually.

Besides, this chapter has a built in contradiction if your interpretation is correct and at the risk of exposing your very skewed hermeneutic, I will point it out.

Ac 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

DJC49 wrote:
Gee, JD, that's awfully nice of you to teach us all about what it means to be "in Him," but would you be so kind as to educate us all as to what "he hath CHOSEN US ... BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" means?

Minnow wrote,

Or The confirmed effectual calling of His chosen people to Christ according to the will OF GOD.
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Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

The destination of those chosen in Christ is to the adoption of children of God which is yet a future event, the Holy Spirit having been given us as an earnest of that transaction and to seal us as his own.

The first clue of what it means to be "in Christ" is to observe the contrasts in other portions of Scripture.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Notice that the as and so typology is employed here. "as", the type, in Adam, all die, even so, the antitype, in Christ all shall be made alive.

One would need to understand what it means to be "in Adam" and how we got there to understand what it means to be "in Christ" and how we get there.

I submit to you that we got into Adam by a birth and if we are in Christ it is likewise by a birth. Jesus said, 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Additionally, ones calling must be made sure as well. How does that happen?

The following verse, V 11, puts it into perspective.

2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

If one must be elected by God in the eternal past to be saved, then you must produce a verse that says YOU have been elected and that from among the hoard of the damned. Otherwise you are merely guessing that you are elect. You have no assurance from the Scriptures and you may indeed be one of the damned. You probably are one of them.

So what if it is true that God chooses some to be saved (which he doesn't) from before the foundation of the world. Some among the dreaded armenians and some among the cultish Mormons and possibly some among the russellites might just be elect. Who is to say they are not if there is no way to ascertain who is? They believe in Jesus Christ. Ask them if they do. They will tell you.

Now, you men have elevated yourself up above most of the population of the world and history by bragging and boasting that you are not like these presentenced to hell and created for the pleasure of God to watch them burn hopeless individuals and I want to know how you know for sure you are not among them.

You must have God saying it because salvation is by the word of God or it is not salvation at all.

The word of God is his authority and it must be yours as well.

If those verses confirm your salvation, good. I actually think that some calvimists are saved in spite of their adopted systematic theology, and certainly not because of it. Some people just fall inti error and the snare of the devil and can never get loose. Salvation is not about systematic theologies and doctrines of election and tulip or dispensationalism. It is about a sinner being convicted of his sinful condiction and hearing that God has provided a way of forgiveness of sin and his believing God did send his son, Jrsus Christ, to die in his place to save him. It is a personal thing between him and God and it has nothing at all to do with some sort of pre election. The men who are preaching that are preaching another gospel, a different way to God when Jesus said he is the only way and the water of life is available to all who will drink and men must believe the good news that he will save them.

This is serious. No one can quote God saying they are one of the elect. All you men assume you are because of your own subjective experience and work. It is self righteousness and pharasaism.

Lurker wrote:
1 John 3:18-24

DJC49, I am going to teach you a very important bible principle here. Noitice this verse.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Now who has chosen us?

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

How has he chosen us or better when has he chosen us?

Right if you said he hath chosen us "in him" before the foundation of the world.

Now, obviously we were not there before the foundation of the world and so we were not in him at that time. But, we are "in him" now and that is the point of the Ephesian epistle. God's purpose before the world is to choose those in Christ.

I will refer you to a promise to not just the elect but "as many" as received him to them he gave power to become the sons of God, even to them that BELIEVE ON HIS NAME. None are excluded.

Are you better than these fellows that we are told about here.

Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I really don't think you want to use that argumeent because it will cause you to have to take as many turns as a mountain road! I know you believe in eternal security and that slice will cause you to be unable to defend it.

Re 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Ex 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Why would God have the book of life at the judgment of the damned? Have you ever thought to ask yourself that question?

John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he *POWER* to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

Col 1:12 "Giving thanks unto the Father, WHICH HATH MADE US MEET to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light"

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These are the verses you have cited for your very own particular election and I would like to say that you have no more exclusivity to these verses than the arminian. They are not particular verses, they are general versesw. The arminian could show up one day before God and say "you should let me into heaven because you said "as many" as received him you gave power to become the sons of God. You must keep your word".

The "we" in Ro 8:16 is a collective term.
It is the same for the "us" in Co 1:12.

The fact is that you cannot produce a verse that says you are for sure one of the elect. The Scripture says the heart of man is decietful and desparately wicked, who can know it. Do not tell me you cannot be deceived and that you do not need a bible promise that you are one of the elect.

The bible says:

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

You cannot be born again if you are not elect according to you and so where are you told that you are elect.

Now, if it is whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely, you have answered my question. Or, if it is whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, then you have told me who is elect. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved, if that is what you say then you can be taken seriously, but not before.

What verse in the Scriptures lets you know that you are elect among other men who are not?????????

NO MORE WAFFLING, PLEASE!!!!!

Minnow wrote:
THIS refers to the Body of Christ JD.
Do you know who they are???
The Elect who are by Grace provided with the gift of Faith.

The bibles says "Being born again, not by corruptible seed but by incorruptible, by the Word of God which liveth and abideth forever.

If the bible does not say you are elect then you are probably not elect.

I can imagine you showing up one day before God and him asking you, "why should I let you into heaven?" You say, because you elected me. He says, where did I say that?

No sir, you must have a bible reason to be saved if you are born again by the word of God which will be a confirmation of your salvation thoughout eternity.