(Abram) took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot (from) Haran, and they set out for the land of Canaan, and they arrived there. Genesis 12:5
The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was still in Mesopotamia...he left the land of the Chaldeans and settled in Haran. After the death of his father, God sent him to this land where you are now living. Acts 7:2, 4
...the great river, the Euphrates - Gen 15:18
So (Jacob) fled with all he had, and crossing the River (That is, the Euphrates), he headed for the hill country of Gilead. Gen. 13:21
Cheryl wrote:Chris M,How in the world does that Scripture verse debunk Calvinism?
Why oh why do not KJVO folks simply read and take on board what Miles Smith wrote in his "Translators to the Reader" on behalf of all the translators? They were not claiming any kind of finality or irreformability to their product. Quite the reverse! They were trying to make good translations better, and trying to rise above partisanship.
We thank God for the contribution that the KJV has made over the last three to four centuries (remember that its path to acceptance was far from immediate, but was slow and rocky).
However, it is time to move on: we know much more about Hebrew and cognate languages now; we likewise know more about the Greek language through the multitudes of papyri from the Graeco-Roman world of the time. There is no reason at all to regard the KJV, or any translation, as the be-all and end-all. As Miles Smith himself observed,"They that are wise, had rather have their judgements at liberty in differences of readings, than to be captivated to one, when it may be the other."
I think it becomes fairly clear that the Euphrates is indicated especially after one reads "the flood" mentioned in previous verses of the same chapter of Joshua.
(Joshua 24:2) "And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, [even] Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods."
From where did Terah originate and serve other gods?Answer: UR OF THE CHALDEES.
(Gen 11:31) "And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them FROM UR OF THE CHALDEES, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there."
Also:(Joshua 24:3) "And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed, and gave him Isaac.(Jos 24:14) "Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD."
And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. Luke 17:26-30
The other side of the flood is the time before the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah when men served idols and knew not God.
There are several texts where "the River" denotes the Euphrates: Deut.11:24 (where the name Perat is added for further clarification); Psa.72:8; Isa.7:20; 8:7; 11:15: 19:5; Zech.9:10.
In Josh.24 the reference is clear, as Joshua mentions the idolatrous worship practised by Terah and Nahor, clearly in Mesopotamia (24:2), and then how God brought them from Mesopotamia to Canaan (24:3). In each case in this passage "the River" refers to to the Euphrates, the border of the West Semitic world and the East Semitic world of Mesopotamia.
The phrase â€śon the other sideâ€ť is â€śay'-berâ€ť and it means â€śregion across or opposite sideâ€ťThe word flood â€śnâhârâ€ť and it means â€śa stream or seaâ€ťTherefore we have the phrase the â€śregion across or opposite the stream or sea.â€ťNow the question is who, what, where?In the 1st verse we read, â€śAnd Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem, and called for the elders of Israel, â€¦â€ť, other words the 12 tribes.Now in verse 14 we see the same Hebrew word, â€śay-berâ€ť. â€śand put away the elohiyms which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Yahweh.â€ťNote your â€śfathersâ€ť those of Egypt, not those of the river Euphrates.Now note in verse 15, when Yahweh says â€śwhich your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood,â€ť â€śwhich your fathers served that were on the region across or opposite side of the stream or river.â€ť Now ask yourself which river? Red Sea!
Now in closing I will say that some manuscripts do read â€śwhich your fathers served on the other side of the Euphrates and in Egypt.â€ť
Joshua specifically refers to "the gods which your fathers worshipped" (Terah et al and their worship of the moon deity) when they they lived there. Part of God's call to Abraham was to leave that whole environment with its idolatry and go to a new land where fellowship with the true God would be all important.
What a wonderful description of IRRESISTIBLE GRACE!!!
So much for free choice...
If we read verse 15 carefully we see it's not a choice between godsincluding Jehovah, but a choice of gods EXCLUDING Jehovah. The firstpart of the verse makes this abundantly clear. Joshua is NOT making achoice but affirming to his fellow Israelites that he belives that it'sNOT evil to serve the Lord, therefore no choice is necessary or even madeon his part.
For proof of Arminianism or Calvinism, one has to look elswhere in theBible. You won't find it here.
I liked your answers below. I've been teaching my wife the Hebrew and sometimes I confuse her. I'll try and get her to read the O.T. in English next time.
Well at least on this survey thread the Calvinist came up with the right answer.There is no way that this refers to the Noahdic flood. At least my Calvinist theological schooling taught me to read the plain evidence of Scripture.
Wonderful illustration of free choice
Think about this:There were the Israelites trapped at the Red Sea(devil/certain death/sin-bondage). But God stopped the Egyptians with the cloud/darkness(God's power/protection). God then seperated the Sea(offer of salvation). Moses and the people accept(what you must DO in order to be saved) Israelites cross safely to the other side(Heaven bound).
Had the Israelites refused it would have meant back to bondage and/or certain death.
God did not push the Hebrews thru the Sea. He created a way of safety and it was up to the Jew to do something. They chose salvation. They had a free-will choice. They chose right