Mike wrote:Good Morning/Afternoon, Scotart. Hey, if it's afternoon there, does it mean I must be living in the past? How's things north of the Aulus Platorius Nepos project?
As for poor old Aulus Platorius Nepos - the lad is still trying to finish that bloomin wall.
Scotart wrote:What are you doing up this early in New York??? Good morning to you.Good Afternoon here. BTW you forgot that God is omniscient and omnipotent in the lives of His creatures.
How's things north of the Aulus Platorius Nepos project?
Mike wrote:If God is sovereign in the manner some say, nothing is outside his "work." If we believe he is in sovereign control of all events, we have to conclude that doing nothing is an active, not a passive choice. Take it back to the beginning, where the choice was made that an unrepentant sinner be created in the first place. Is it not then that God actively chose him for damnation, in the very act of creating him and predestinating him to remain unsaved? Allowing him to remain unsaved today was an active choice made before his birth. Of course, that is if we are to believe this sort of thing of God. I think those who say God "passes by" some, leaving them unsaved, do not trace what they believe back far enough to see the error in their position.
Good morning to you.Good Afternoon here.
BTW you forgot that God is omniscient and omnipotent in the lives of His creatures.
San Jose John wrote:I always understood "choice" to be an active process. God doesn't need to be active, or "choose" me to go to Hell. Without His help I'll end up there anyway because I'm a sinner, but WITH His help ("choice") I am saved thereby. He has to work in order to save me. To allow me to remain in an unsaved state, He doen't have to do anything. That's what I was taught and remains my understanding of this issue.
I would fit in the category of an Arminian in the tradition of Wesley (and, if I am not mistaken, Arminius also); yet I would not really fit as an Arminian or a Calvinist by current popular definition. I find it very interesting how close Arminianism is to Calvinism. Often, they differ almost entirely simply in their use of terms. I believe confusion comes often when ideas are carried by reason that has not been properly tempered by Christian experience. Other times it comes when pride creeps in as it did among the apostles as they discussed who would be the greatest. I think it is interesting to note that Wesley's Arminianism did not weaken his belief in the sovereignty of God or his concept of holiness, while Whitefield's Calvinism did not reduce his fervor for evangelism.
There is a good article from a godly scots preacher but I can only quote part here. Maybe we can as believers not confess sin as we ought-seems to be the major part of prayer of godly men used in evangelsim
Robert Murray M'Cheyene's Personal ConfessionsI find that the devil often makes use of the confession of sinto stir up again the very sin confessed into new exercise, sothat I am afraid to dwell upon the confession. I must askexperienced Christians about this. For the present, I think Ishould strive against this awful abuse of confession, wherebythe devil seeks to frighten me away from confessing. I ought totake all methods for seeing the vileness of my sins...
McCheyne is a godly preacher sadly neglected and whatever our denonminational position his ministry and life have so much to bless a serious study!
Robert Murray McCheyne - Saintly Pastor of Dundee (Famous Saints #1)
Good post John.
I note your like for J C Ryle-his book Holiness is an amazing book!
Talking about the commission, one aspect of it has always been a source of immense comfort to myself. Jesus did not only say GO, he also said, to those who obeyed the call to go, "and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Matthew 28:19-20. Any Christian will know the truth of these words, if they but venture out into this evil world with the gospel. The Lord Jesus, by his Spirit, will be with you. Not in a doctrinal way, but an actual. He will stand with you, and you will know his power, comfort, and peace, as you testify of him to sinners, in the midst of a crooked and depraved generation.
This is quite normal for the Christian life, because I see Christianity as essentially an international amnesty offered to rebels, with the result of 'reconciliation with God'. Hence the gospel cry: 'Be ye reconciled to God.'
I will try to download the messages you mentioned bro, but my system may not allow it.
God bless you brother.
statsmania wrote:The rest of the UK I know not,do you know of the Fulton St revival New York in the late 1850s. Jeremiah Lanphier began with a prayer meeting? Mentioned in free church cont maghttp://www.masterstrumpet.org/issue4.pdfMaybe Michael Hanerek can enlighten us further?Evangelism lacking REAL PRAYER IS possibly ONE ANSWER TO the question why?
Perhaps this is a major part of what we need in our day...to ask God that He would truly BURDEN us to pray for what He desires in the salvation of the lost.
And I don't know about you all but I have to think that my prayer life is one of the major areas that the devil attacks in my life and seeks to sabotage.
Anyway I believe Christians need revival in our praying. Not just in asking God for the good things of God that we want physically and spiritually but such prayer lives that we would truly be a holy people unto the Lord about our Father's will and led and empowered by the Holy Spirit in the doing of it.
Just listened to a Glasgow sermon, a free church cont. who began evangelsing a particular area of glasgow whilst praying for a church building-well God has granted the building in an amazing way. You could be right and the answer to 'why' God alone does know, yet there is something we can do as believers-the sermon just providentially heard might grant you an answer if you care to listen http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1219081511483
Also in Glasgow there is a street preaching baptist church here on sermonaudio with the actual street preaching messGES, add another 2 evangelising calvinistic churches in that city alsohttp://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=stenochbaptist
The rest of the UK I know not,do you know of the Fulton St revival New York in the late 1850s. Jeremiah Lanphier began with a prayer meeting? Mentioned in free church cont maghttp://www.masterstrumpet.org/issue4.pdf
Maybe Michael Hanerek can enlighten us further?
Evangelism lacking REAL PRAYER IS possibly ONE ANSWER TO the question why?
I was fortunate to read Dallimore's Whitefield at the first church I attended, plus other biographies on Christmas Evans, Spurgeon, and a host of others. The church had a large library full of good books.
As to your question "Why?" This is tricky, and I do not know the answer. Do you? Maybe this is a time when all the Gentile sheep have been brought into the fold, and there is none left to find. We'll soon see if Israel begins to repent and turns back to the Lord.
Nice quote from McCheyne, I followed his Bible reading calendar for about seven years.
see how a christian was blessed reading whitefield-excellent1 http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/09/30/church-history-spotlight-george-whitefield-part-1/
well we seem to be in agreement so bless you brother. God's instruments like Whitefield didn't watch the TV then head out with a little prayer to post a few tracts, but were consistant holy men of God (though nothing in their own sight)-all around them could testify to their personal godliness. We need such men today in our pulpits and as evangelists-instruments so prepared of God contrite and trembling at His word
'I am also deepened in my conviction, that if we are to be instruments in such a work, we must be purified from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit. Oh, cry for personal holiness, constant nearness to God, by the blood of the Lamb. Bask in his beams â€” lie back in the arms of love â€” be filled with his Spirit â€” or all success in the ministry will only be to your own everlasting confusion... How much more useful might we be, if we were only more free from pride, self conceit, personal vanity, or some secret sin that our heart knows. Oh! hateful sins, that destroy our peace and ruin souls.' McCheyne
Yes, I thought that might be the case of Pastor Anderson.
The work of the Holy Ghost is of paramount importance in true conversion, and I fear that many deluded souls will be saddened on Judgment Day because they will then see the deception.
In my own experience, I had a terrible conviction of sin and a fear of God, coupled with hope that Christ Jesus might just save me if I turned to him in repentance. Praise him that he did just that.
But I have known others who were converted at an early age, who experienced less conviction, but who were still truly born again. It was reading Whitefield which showed me that this can happen.
The Street Preacher I respect immensely. What an encouragement to his flock! Good on yer bro.
In my experience, tracting has been a means of approaching strangers, some of whom will then engage in discussion, thereby giving an opportunity to give out gospel seeds.
No-one can say that tracts are ineffective. Many tracts are given out in the UK and only God knows in whose hearts he is working.
I'll try to download Paul Washer, but my system may be too slow, alas.
Yes I would agree it is gospel preaching that is paramount, tracting was an example that even sincere evangelical activity is not the simple answer for the Lord even in areas of sound street preaching in the uk is not blessing such- so we must ask why? Spurgeon rightly encouraged tracting/door to door/street evangelism and yes I agree that there is a need to evangelise exactly as you say 'the whole country would soon know the issue, as it was once in history. This is my main concern'
Yet there must be something more than evangelical activity-the above sermon by Paul Washer addresses the lack of a deep work of genuine repentance and trembling before the thrice Holy God-this accompanied Whitefield's preaching. Washer gives example of what a christian should be PRIOR to any sincere activity--and also what true evangelism actually is. He is on the mark Anderson is deceived IF Washer is right
It is more important that Jesus be happy with us. No test, I'm only a speckadust airing my thoughts.
My own conversion was brought about through preaching.
Briefly, my heart was taught to fear God through the preaching of Revelation 6:15-17. It is crucial that sinners hear about the wrath of God. This is a kindness to them, because if they continue to reject Christ they will experience this awful wrath on Judgment Day.
In the same message I heard of the loveliness of God by way of grace, as shown from John 3:16 and Romans 5:6. It is a kindness to sinners to tell them about God's free gift through Jesus Christ, and his willingness to receive all that call upon him.
Regarding the preaching of the whole counsel of God, then yes, it is very important to do this. But the man in the street needs to start somewhere a bit simpler, and even when converted will be on milk (doctrinal milk) for some time afterwards.
Paul became all things to all men, according to their position, and I think we should do likewise.
If you want to listen to one of the testimonies through which I was converted, go to http://www.preachtheword.com/sermon/williemullan.shtml
John UK wrote:If all will be willing to communicate the gospel by whatever means they can
But John since you liked my last post, that raises a question; "Do you only like the nice bits of the Bible which pander to the human emotions of happy, glee, elation, pleasure etc?
In the Beatitiudes the Lord teaches that the Christian status in this world is poverty, mourning, meek in the world of stong, difficulty in finding any righteousness, merciful in a world lacking mercy, trying to make pure what is impure, seeking peace in a violent world, and being persecuted by all and sundry around us.
These are formidable trials and tribulations in a world run by Satan and sins.
Should not the whole counsel of God be preached, even the hard parts? Or do you think that we need to be nice, cordial, winsome to people, to get them into salvation? This being so how much of the Bible do we need to hide from prospective candidates?
John, I believe the Elect of God are brought into the true Church by divine grace and power. The Holy Spirit and God's gift of Faith are what overcome sin in the mortal to bring them to Jesus. Only thus do we discern joy and suffering in Holy Writ.
You're working me hard ain't ya?
The preacher who had a sermon entited 'Why tracts are worthless'. Looking at the texts he preached from (I am unable to listen to the sermon) it would appear that he is in favor of actual man-to-man preaching, or gospelling. If that is his stance, then he is biblically correct. The first churches needed nothing but the indwelling Holy Ghost in order to witness to Christ, and they saw a huge effect - conversions on the one hand, and persecution on the other. Pastor Anderson claims hundreds of conversions and baptisms through preaching and door-to-door evangelism. I cannot comment on those figures and claims.
As there is no biblical precedent for tracts, as such, it may be wrong to make use of them. But!
Stick a pin in a map of England, and interview everyone living in a ten mile radius of that point to ascertain whether or not they have heard the gospel of free grace. You won't find many. Why? Because individual believers do not understand the part they have to play in reaching the lost. If all able-bodied believers were mobilized, and actively communicating their faith, the whole country would soon know the issue, as it was once in history. This is my main concern.
The other points you raised...later...out of space.
We have a non calvinist church on sermonaudio with the following:
Why Tracts are Worthlesshttp://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=121808101222'We are an old-fashioned, independent, fundamental, King James Bible only, separated Baptist church and not ashamed to say so.'
He believes 99% of tracts are worthless (me thinks he reads the wrong tracts ) and never seen a conversion from 15,000 tracts.
A calvinist with 48,000 gospel tracts in one year?
Am I against tracting 100% no! Hudson Taylor was converted through his mother being compelled by the Holy Spirit to pray for her son...meanwhile he picked up a tarct and the Holy Spirit opened His eyes!
Maybe today we have little prayer and little true preaching, yet read some street preachers and they will say that despite faithful preaching there are few conversions. Why?
If George Whitefield was alive today would there be more conversions even when the Spirit of God is withdrawn. What must happen first for there to be a revival? Simply send out 48,000 tracts as our arminian friends would have us believe? What ya think?
How refreshing to get a rational response to one of my posts! Thank you so much, bro.
I can only estimate, but I reckon over the years I have known about 750 believers who hold to the doctrines of grace.
I firmly believe, and lament, that in general (in England especially) the churches which could generally be called reformed, have lost sight of the evangelistic fervour of historic 'Calvinism', say like George Whitefields day, and are believing in an armchair Christianity whereby effort is not required to save God's people, because God will accomplish all his purposes without the help of his people. So that all we have to do is be faithfully preaching his word in our churches every Sunday, thereby obeying the great commission. What?
Exceptions include the mighty work going on at the Met Tab in London, and isolated pockets of awakenings elsewhere. In each instance, the people are very ACTIVE, devoting themselves to the Lord's work.
Our call is to GO, not sit back. Even if there is little response, we should still go and preach the gospel to all men.
Any response from churches here on SA are welcome to come back at me, if you think I have spoken amiss.
statsmanic wrote:"95% of all Calvinists I know are waiting for the 'elect' to walk in their church and get converted. And that is not right!" John UkJHow many calvinists do you actually know so I can appreciate your statistics and math?
But it does touch on what is important. Where Jesus Christ is preached God brings people to salvation.
Rather than continually hash Calvinism vs Arminianism btw I am neither would it be better to seriously ask ourselves are we truly praying for the lost to be saved and truly teaching them of Jesus Christ and truly preaching Him to them.