Christians' 'deference to authority has gone too far'?
One of the most prominent and outspoken opponents of government restrictions on worship is John MacArthur’s Grace Community Church, which has remained open in spite of fines and threats of arrest. In July, the church published “Christ, not Caesar, Is Head of the Church,” which offered a scriptural defense of their uncompromising refusal to “acquiesce to a government-imposed moratorium on ... weekly congregational worship or other regular corporate gatherings,” alongside an equally stark defense of deference to governing authorities in all other matters – in effect, they claim that apart from matters crucial to defending the liberty of the church, citizens do not have any rights to civil disobedience.
In framing their objections in these terms, MacArthur and many other critics still cede too much ground to the government – and they do so by not appreciating the difference in context between Imperial...
Joe Barret, I found Trawella on SermonAudio. He sets forth a good biblical perspective on the authority of the state.
Adriel wrote: I wondered who would respond with that verse. But it doesn't negate all other verses in Scripture does it.
Adriel, you quoted 1Peter 2:13 "Submit yourselves to ... man.." And I quoted Acts5:29 "..obey God rather then man.."
I said we have both, and you came back with, "it doesn't negate all other verses." That is my point!! Before Peter said submit, he said obey God rather then man. We have both!
Acts5:29 "Obey God rather then man," is definitive proof that the state is not given unquestioned rights! Yes we obey, but not worship the state. There's an appropriate place for both!
Adriel wrote: John MacArthur must deal with these verses too. 1Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves..
I cant speak for Mac, but NOWHERE in the bible can you find a call for a prohibition on Gods people to assemble and worship. If you're scared, then stay away but don't wrap the bible around your fear! The state can prohibit because it has the might. But it's nobody else's business to tell a believer how they can worship!
MS wrote: Hello all. Just wanted to give a quick update on our son who had Covid. He is on the way to recovery.PTL🙏. It was touch and go for a few days, but the Lord was merciful and is restoring him back to us. I want to thank all of you who prayed and left kind messages. Praying you all are well and that the New Year will draw us all closer to our great God and Savior, for He is worthy. Blessings to all.
Sister MS, thank you for the update, I'd been wondering how things were going. Praise God he is getting better. Yes, may He draw us closer to Him, grant us deeper understanding of Him, and see us through day to day.
Hello all. Just wanted to give a quick update on our son who had Covid. He is on the way to recovery.PTL🙏. It was touch and go for a few days, but the Lord was merciful and is restoring him back to us. I want to thank all of you who prayed and left kind messages. Praying you all are well and that the New Year will draw us all closer to our great God and Savior, for He is worthy. Blessings to all.
cv wrote: In all those verses, there is no hint of this: "But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men."Acts5:29
I wondered who would respond with that verse.
But it doesn't negate all other verses in Scripture does it. Nor does it negate all other communication with other human beings. In fact it encourages communication in a God like manner and witness.
1Peter 2: and Romans 13: declares we are not to mutiny against our government - Because God ordained its place in your/our nations.
As Christians who "Hear" God's commands and obey them - We are to also "Hear" the Word of God and obey Him therein. The Peter and Romans teachings are just as important and viable to Christians as any other verses. We should not delete them because we Hear and obey God.
John MacArthur must deal with these verses too.
1Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him"
Stick around and you'll see the pattern....some preached against trash talking President Obama2m but forgot all that when Trump came into the picture. With Biden we'll be back to the golden calf pedestal.
If there's one thing that 2020 has taught me, it's that Americans, and even Christians, are ,on balance, gutless, spineless, and willing to just roll over and let tyrants have their way. Some even beg for more authoritarianism and are mad at certain officials for not being more fascistic.
I read on SA every day about Christians facing REAL threats around the world every day and still endeavoring to gather for worship. But some mini Mussolini down at the county health office wags her finger and says "no church for you!" And everyone falls in line. Makes me sick.
Total submission is due to none other than God alone. Anything else is called idolatry. Nowhere in either Romans 13 or 1 Peter 2 are we told to unconditionally submit to government. Rather Peter tells us to submit to the kind of government who “is sent for the punishment of evil doers, and for the praise of those who do well.” You would be hard pressed to say that anything this government has done over the last several months is punishing evil and rewarding good. Rather it has punished the good and rewarded the evil. Churches are deemed nonessential while ruthless riots are applauded. This kind of tyranny must, it must, be resisted. May we all remain faithful to Christ during these times, always remembering that resistance to tyrants is obedience to God.
Jim Lincoln wrote: —- So, I can't think of any instance where I have shown disrespect to our governor or my mayor, etc. Hopefully that answers your question, Mike?
Seeking clarification here, Jim, but when Biden takes his stolen place are we allowed to talk bad about him or does Romans state otherwise like it did for Obama but not Trump?
Adriel wrote: What about..... 1Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. 15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. 17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king."
In all those verses, there is no hint of this: "But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men."Acts5:29
We have both.
So who is calling for a wholesale disobedience to authority?
First of all, we don't have Kings, and nothing that really looks like them far as that goes the Founding Fathers didn't want that that's for certain. George Washington rejected the title of King ❗👍
I have never mentioned that I was going to disobey all the little Neros that might pop up through history. The governor of California isn't a King or Nero; he still should be obeyed by Californians.
I always remember my father making a hasty retreat at an airport, so he didn't have to shake the hand, I think he was a senator. This this was a very good way of handling the situation of avoiding to not show respect for a person. There are certainly people in the government that I would make a much faster retreat than he did if I happen to run across any of them!
So, I can't think of any instance where I have shown disrespect to our governor or my mayor, etc.
Rom 13:4 He is the minister of God, **a revenger to execute wrath** upon him that doeth evil.
His instrument of vengeance is a sword. (Deut 32:41)
All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword (Amos 9:10-12, cf Acts 15:15-18).
There's no biblical warrant for Rom 13 to be a reference to civil magistrates.
Its simply a misunderstanding of whom bears the sword and furthermore what the sword even is.
If the above "minister of God" is a reference to secular authorities, then why is that same revenger - which revealed wrath in Rom 1:18- said to have come from heaven?
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed** from heaven** against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.
1Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. 15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. 17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king."
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake......."
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