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Breaking News All | United Prayer | SA Center | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  5/18/2021
THURSDAY, DEC 10, 2020  |  68 comments
Al Mohler raises concerns about study claiming ‘nearly half’ of LGBT Americans are religious
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary President Al Mohler has questioned the validity of a study claiming that “nearly half” of LGBT-identified Americans are religious.

The Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law, a pro-LGBT research entity, released a report in October titled “Religiosity Among LGBT Adults in the US,” which, among other things, concluded that 46.7% of LGBT Americans are religious.

“Nearly half (46.7%) of LGBT adults are religious — either moderately (27.0%) or highly religious (19.7%),” according to the report. “More specifically, almost one in five (19.7%) LGBT adults are highly religious (i.e., religion is important in their daily lives and they attend services weekly or nearly weekly). The remainder, 27.0%, are moderately religious.” ...


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News Item12/15/2020 8:30 AM
John Lee | Wales  Find all comments by John Lee
1 Corinthians 15:21-22 NLT
"So you see, just as death came into the world through a man, now the resurrection from the dead has begun through another man. Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life."

There is no avoiding the headship. If you avoid the headship of Adam, you also must avoid the headship of Christ. Federalism divides all men into one of two camps: Adam's camp and Christ's camp. And we are either in Adam or we are in Christ. There is no fence sitting with this basic of all doctrines. Is Adam your head or is Christ your head?

Is the subject difficult? Why not begin here and study up on it until you get it. I guarantee that when you get it, you will become more joyful, more worshipful, more zealous, more content, more assured. And you will never ever consider anything you have done contributes any merit regarding your salvation. The federal headship of Adam or Christ discounts that as a possibility. Just as Adam is separate from you in the matter of your being dead in sins and will die twice more in the future, so Christ is separate from you in the matter of your being accounted righteous (justified) and will live for ever in the power of an endless life.

http://www.1689federalism.com/

68

News Item12/15/2020 6:14 AM
John Lee | Wales  Find all comments by John Lee
Romans 5:12-14 NLT
"When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break. Still, everyone died—from the time of Adam to the time of Moses—even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. Now Adam is a symbol, a representation of Christ, who was yet to come."

Roman 5:16-18 NLT
"And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ. Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone."

If you deny Adam's sin bringing condemnation to all, you deny Christ's righteousness as the means of reconciliation between sinners and God.

67

News Item12/15/2020 5:50 AM
Plain teaching  Find all comments by Plain teaching
John Lee wrote:
And Adam's sin imputed to all means that all die. The Bible even says that, it is plain teaching.
Deut 24:6
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Jer 31:30
But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

Ezek 18:19-20
Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

66

News Item12/15/2020 4:47 AM
John Lee | Wales  Find all comments by John Lee
Lurker wrote:
Here's what you are overlooking:
Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Imputation of sin by the law. Paul (along with all the Jews) was brought "under the law" on Damascus Road.
Lurker, you say you want me to answer your text and point you make, but it will be impossible to do so without referring to imputed sin on all before the law came (Sinai), even death upon all who did not sin according to Adam's sin (so in that sense were born innocent) in the very next verse. So why did they die, if the wages of sin is death? Simply because of Adam's sin imputed to them. They inherited it. They were there in the garden. Sin is the only cause of death. They had not sinned. Therefore you are only left with Adam's sin imputed to them. And that is what happened. And Adam's sin imputed to all means that all die. The Bible even says that, it is plain teaching.

As for the expression 'under the law'. Baby boys who were born under the law were circumcised at eight days old. Saul of Tarsus was circumcised when he was eight days old. Therefore.....Therefore......

Therefore......Yes? No? Yes? Of course:

Saul of Tarsus was born under the law.

65

News Item12/14/2020 9:21 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John Lee wrote:
"whilst a Pharisee; who, though he was born under the law.... John Gill Romans 7:9a
Where does the bible say Saul was born under the law? It doesn't. The only mention of Paul's birth is his new birth as one born out of due season. So from the git go Gill is building an argument on an assumption.

John, Gill is dead and doesn't make for a sparring partner. If you are unable or unwilling to defend what you believe from scripture that's fine. But don't expect me to argue with dead people.

As for your intent to change the subject once again and lay out your doctrine of original sin, as if that is the true lens through which we are to interpret Romans 7:9; do as you please but I will not be responding.

64

News Item12/14/2020 4:29 PM
John Lee | Wales  Find all comments by John Lee
Lurker, it gets late here, so I will have to sign off until the morning, when I will be looking at your new text and showing how Adam's sin imputed to the human race, brought death to all, even before the law was given.

I didn't look up my commentators on e-sword until this evening, when I was delighted to find that Matthew Henry, John Gill and Albert Barnes all agreed with me but in a deeper way (naturally) and only one disagreed, which was Adam Clarke. Anyway, I am sorry to introduce John Gill to the debate, but I thought his words so helpful as to provide benefit. I usually find him helpful, and being a Baptist holding to the Biblical Doctrines of Free and Sovereign Grace, I always enjoy reading what he has to say.

63

News Item12/14/2020 3:51 PM
Adriel  Find all comments by Adriel
"Sin is elusive. Sin has no substance, no independent existence. It does not even exist in the sense that love or justice do. It exists only as a parasite of the good or good things. Sin creates nothing; it abuses, perverts, spoils, and destroys the good things God has made. It has no program, no thesis; it only has an antithesis, an opposition."

" In some ways sin is an absence rather than a presence: it fails to listen, walks past the needy, and subsists in alienation rather than relation."

"Although negative and irrational, sin is also a power. It crouches at Cain's door, ready to devour him (Gen 4:7). It compels Paul to do the evil he does not wish (Rom 7:14-20). It moves and is moved by demonic and societal forces. It enters the heart, so that wickedness wells up spontaneously from within (Matt 15:17-19). Its stronghold is the all but instinctive tendency to put one's own interests and desires first. From the selfish heart comes rebellion, godlessness, cursing, lies, slander, envy, greed, sensuality, and pride (Matt 12:34-37 ; Rom 1:18-32)." (Daniel Doriani).

~#~

Btw: Is it not curious, that, without sin - Jesus would not need to save.?

62

News Item12/14/2020 3:25 PM
John Lee | Wales  Find all comments by John Lee
"whilst a Pharisee; who, though he was born under the law, was brought up and more perfectly instructed in it than the common people were, and was a strict observer of it, yet was without the knowledge of the spirituality of it; he, as the rest of the Pharisees, thought it only regarded the outward actions, and did not reach to the spirits or souls of men, the inward thoughts and affections of the mind; the law was as it were at a distance from him, it had not as yet entered into his heart and conscience; and whilst this was his case he was "alive", he did not know that he "was dead in trespasses and sins", Eph_2:1, a truth he afterwards was acquainted with; nor that he was so much as disordered by sin; he thought himself healthful, sound, and whole, when he was diseased and full of wounds, bruises, and sores, from head to foot; he lived in the utmost peace and tranquillity, without the least ruffle and uneasiness, free from any terror or despondency, and in perfect security, being in sure and certain hope of eternal life; and concluded if ever any man went to heaven he certainly should, since, as he imagined, he lived a holy and righteous life, free of all blame, and even to perfection;" John Gill Romans 7:9a

Bump?

61

News Item12/14/2020 3:07 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John Lee wrote:
I'll let another John chip in here, Lurker.

"...but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9
John Gill

I agree with everything Gill wrote.

"he now saw himself a dead man, dead in sin, ***dead in law***"

But what Gill failed to wax eloquent about is the commandment. He said Paul saw himself "dead in law". Does that mean he came "under the law" when the commandment came? The term "under the law" is used 82 times in the NT so it must mean something. You tell me.

60

News Item12/14/2020 2:47 PM
John Lee | Wales  Find all comments by John Lee
I'll let another John chip in here, Lurker.

"...but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9

"but when the commandment came; not to Adam in the garden of Eden; nor to the Israelites on Mount Sinai; but into the heart and conscience of the apostle, with power and light from above:
sin revived; it lift up its monstrous head, and appeared in its ugly shape, exceeding sinful indeed; it grew strong and exerted itself; its strugglings and opposition, its rebellion and corruption were seen and felt, which show that it was not dead before, only seemed to be so; it was in being, and it lived and acted before as now; the difference was not in that, but in the apostle's sense and apprehension of it, who upon sight of it died away:
and I died; he now saw himself a dead man, dead in sin, dead in law, under a sentence of death which he now had within himself; he saw he was deserving of eternal death, and all his hopes of eternal life by his obedience to the law of works died at once; he now experimentally learnt that doctrine he so much insisted afterwards in his ministry, and to the last maintained, that there can be no justification of a sinner by the deeds of the law, since by it is the knowledge of sin." John Gill

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News Item12/14/2020 2:42 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John Lee wrote:
Well I did that once and you ignored it, Lurker.
I didn't ignore your argument. I just don't agree with it and presented what I believe is a scriptural argument. But that hasn't proved fruitful so maybe a different approach.

I'll preface by saying I get your position on the order of: 'There was never a time since Paul was taught the law at the feet of Gamliel that he was "without the law" because he had a personal and intimate knowledge of the law.'

Rom 6:14-15 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for **ye are not under the law,** but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because **we are not under the law,** but under grace? God forbid.

Here Paul teaches the Roman converts that "WE" (he includes himself) "are not under the law." So it's not about a personal and intimate knowledge of the law but whether he was "under the law". Why would he say that if a personal and intimate knowledge of the law is all that comes into his discourse and all we are to consider? Here's what you are overlooking:

Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Imputation of sin by the law. Paul (along with all the Jews) was brought "under the law" on Damascus Road.

58

News Item12/14/2020 12:53 PM
John Lee | Wales  Find all comments by John Lee
Lurker wrote:
If you were serious about teaching me orthodoxy, you'd take the proofs I posted and explain exactly how they don't mean what they clearly say.
Well I did that once and you ignored it, Lurker. So let us try again, and the second time around you might get it. Here is your text:

Romans 7:9 KJV
(9)  For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

1. The first thing to say is that Paul was never 'without the law' in his entire life, so you cannot take the verse literally and say that he was once without law. I proved this by posting his testimony in Philippians 3:3-9, where he claims that all his life he kept the law as a good Jew and especially as a good Pharisee.

2. Therefore (and don't forget his thoughts changed upon conversion) his assertation that he was alive without the law once, requires interpreting according to what he meant by 'without the law'.

3. Therefore, because he was never without the law in his entire life, the meaning of the expression must be something different from the literal interpretation.

4. Therefore, by necessity, we have to say that he only 'thought' he was spiritually alive, as many today do.

Yes?

57

News Item12/14/2020 12:22 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John Lee wrote:
I am wondering what you imagine 'sin' to be, that it has such power to inflict death on all who commit it. It sounds to me like you are leaving God out of the equation.
As has been typical with you for years, you continue to avoid clear biblical proofs and wander off aimlessly with incoherent analogies to say the bible doesn't mean what it says.

If you were serious about teaching me orthodoxy, you'd take the proofs I posted and explain exactly how they don't mean what they clearly say.

So, sorting through all your bluster, here is the answer to your question.

Sin must be imputed by God by the imposition of the law before it brings about the death of the soul. It's a supernatural act which defies the logic and reasoning of man. But it happened the instant Adam was driven from the garden; when Noah entered the ark; when Israel passed under the cloud and through the sea and when Paul was blinded on Damascus Road, to name a few examples.

So for you to say I'm leaving God out of the equation is ironic because it is you who is leaving God out. Because of the doctrines you've filled your head with that simply are not true, you are unable to see a supernatural work of God.

Rom 4:15 where no law is, there is no transgression.

56

News Item12/14/2020 2:27 AM
John Lee | Wales  Find all comments by John Lee
Lurker wrote:
You wrote: "You talk as if sin has the power to 'slay' people. It has no such power."
John, Your argument is with God, not me.
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
But in your mind, everything I argue for is heterodoxy so you are surely right to deny it regardless of what the bible says. That's your choice.
Take care.
Lurker, do you wish to continue? I am happy to do so, if that is what you want.

I am wondering what you imagine 'sin' to be, that it has such power to inflict death on all who commit it. It sounds to me like you are leaving God out of the equation.

It is like saying, "Well, this morning I broke the law by speeding, and now I expect that by some sort of magic, that act of lawbreaking will somehow, known only to itself, inflict upon me some sort of vengeance."

Lurker, sin is trangression of the law, and the law-giver is the one who punishes he who breaks the law.

If God had given Adam no law, he would still be alive today. Does that help any?

Let us continue. I would love to see you become orthodox.

55

News Item12/13/2020 5:28 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John Lee wrote:
Lurker, you are well on the way to proclaiming that blood has the power to speak, when we both know full well it is incapable of doing so, because of its very nature.
And I agree, it is a good time to cease the attempt to have a sensible discussion on this subject. Your heterodoxy makes that virtually impossible.
You wrote: "You talk as if sin has the power to 'slay' people. It has no such power."

John, Your argument is with God, not me.

1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

But in your mind, everything I argue for is heterodoxy so you are surely right to deny it regardless of what the bible says. That's your choice.

Take care.

54

News Item12/13/2020 3:42 PM
John Lee | Wales  Find all comments by John Lee
Lurker wrote:
John, You say sin has no such power to slay which only leaves the law to slay. But Paul said "God forbid". So I'd suggest you make a decision of who/what you are going to believe...... your fallible reasoning or the infallible scripture.
Lurker, you are well on the way to proclaiming that blood has the power to speak, when we both know full well it is incapable of doing so, because of its very nature.

And I agree, it is a good time to cease the attempt to have a sensible discussion on this subject. Your heterodoxy makes that virtually impossible.

53

News Item12/13/2020 3:29 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John Lee wrote:
You talk as if sin has the power to 'slay' people. It has no such power.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 **Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.** But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

John, You say sin has no such power to slay which only leaves the law to slay. But Paul said "God forbid". So I'd suggest you make a decision of who/what you are going to believe...... your fallible reasoning or the infallible scripture.

I believe we're done here. I'm pleased to discuss most anything when the bible is the sole authority but when what the bible says is outright denied and doctrines of men are the sole authority and means of interpretation, I'm out.

Thanks for your thoughts. As I suspected, it has been an interesting discussion.

52

News Item12/13/2020 2:50 PM
John Lee | Wales  Find all comments by John Lee
Other scripture helps to grasp this, Lurker. See Paul's testimony. When was he ever 'without law'?

5 I was circumcised when I was eight days old. I am a pure-blooded citizen of Israel and a member of the tribe of Benjamin—a real Hebrew if there ever was one! I was a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law. I was so zealous that I harshly persecuted the church. And as for righteousness, I obeyed the law without fault.

I once thought these things were valuable, but now I consider them worthless because of what Christ has done. Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the infinite value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I could gain Christ and become one with him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ. For God’s way of making us right with himself depends on faith. I want to know Christ and experience the mighty power that raised him from the dead. I want to suffer with him, sharing in his death, so that one way or another I will experience the resurrection from the dead! Phil 3:5-11 NLT

51

News Item12/13/2020 1:39 PM
John Lee | Wales  Find all comments by John Lee
Lurker wrote:
1. That said, you seem to be settled with an interpretation that says Paul *thought* he was alive before the commandment came but was actually dead in sin. So let's look at some context.

2. What I read is without the law sin was dead. When the commandment came sin awakened and that very same sin slew him. How could that be if he was already dead in sin?

1. Of course he was dead in sin. He taught the Ephesian believers that they were all dead in trespasses and sins and children of wrath (under God's wrath) like everyone else.

2a. According to God, so long as there is a law set by God, even if it is unknown, the breaking of it will incur the death of the sinner by the hand of God. You talk as if sin has the power to 'slay' people. It has no such power.

2b. The Fall was all your fault, Lurker. You need to realise this, because it will influence your take on original sin. It will also help you to understand why babies sin against God, and why you were born dead. Currently, you baulk at your inheritance in Adam, and refuse him as your federal head, the representative of the human race. But there is no alternative; that is how it is. And God will not change.

50

News Item12/13/2020 12:57 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John Lee wrote:
Romans 7:9 KJV For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

He once saw himself as alive to God (like nominal Christians do) but when enlightened by the Spirit he realised he was actually dead in sin.

John, Romans 7 has a lot of context that affects how this verse is interpreted and as we both know, there are a variety of interpretations that don't agree. So trying to interpret verse 7 absent the context of the chapter may be an exercise in futility.

That said, you seems to be settled with an interpretation that says Paul *thought* he was alive before the commandment came but was actually dead in sin. So let's look at some context.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

What I read is without the law sin was dead. When the commandment came sin awakened and that very same sin slew him. How could that be if he was already dead in sin?

49
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