On Monday, Aaron and Melissa Klein paid the state of Oregon $136,927.07â€”the fine levied against them for declining to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple in 2013. The payment also included interest accrued since the couple lost their appeal in July.
The Kleins, owners of Sweet Cakes by Melissa, had asked the state to postpone collecting the fine while they continued the appeal process. But just weeks before Christmas, the state labor commissioner who brought the case against them seized their bank accounts....
pennned wrote: Brother, I'm truly sorry if I have been too direct or misinterpreted. With such short space, I suppose my comments were unfair. I'll take my leave if you and John UK and others would like to continue. Lord's blessings on you and yours.
Thanks for your kind reply, JPW.
No need for apology.... I wasn't put off by anything you wrote. The reason I would/will take leave is because of a lack of meaningful interaction. With no interaction I shut down not wanting to come off as a teacher (which I am not) giving a lecture.
And no need for you to bow out of the discussion. If fact, would you be willing to explain why you believe the revelation is the unveiling of the book of Revelation? I've thought about that view this afternoon and I'm having a tough time making sense of it. Many questions come to mind which I can't answer objectively.
As you know from my posts below, I'm pretty well settled on the book of life being the subject of the unveiling but I'm willing to rethink my view if objective evidence can be presented demonstrating that that view is faulty and/or objective evidence can be presented which reasonably establishes that the book of Revelation is the subject of the unveiling.
Brother, I'm truly sorry if I have been too direct or misinterpreted. With such short space, I suppose my comments were unfair. I'll take my leave if you and John UK and others would like to continue. Lord's blessings on you and yours.
Mike wrote: 1. Which are figures of something real, and which are literally real? 2. Jesus' parables. Imagery used to veil, no?
1. Common sense, spiritual understanding and Bible knowledge suffice for discernment without 'agendas' See in ch 9 for instance, how many concepts have antecedents in Scripture, which ones are said to be as a similitude of something, (not literal), and which, as the angel (messenger), are plain
"And the fifth angel sounded, â€¦ and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; â€¦ And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads"
2. "they that were about him ... asked of him the parable. And he said ... Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables, That seeing they may see, and not perceive; ... lest at any time they should be converted ..." Mk 4
pennned wrote: I don't see it as complicated as you are saying, where Revelations is the veil and the veil is the law and the veil is the mystery.
I appreciate your thoughts, Penny.
If that is what you got from my posts then I did a poor job of presenting my case and for that I apologize.
Actually, I agree with your earlier post that the word translated "Revelation" means unveiling or uncovering which is what prompted my posts. Where we appear to disagree is what is being unveiled. Brother Mike, and apparently you also, seem to believe it is the book of Revelation which is being unveiled yet nearly 2,000 years since it was penned we are no closer to agreement on the book than the day it was written. The same disagreements prevail; literal or figurative which continue to be answered subjectively. There is no interpretive principal which resolves the disagreement.
That said, my desire has been to demonstrate the virtue of scripture interprets scripture and the book of Revelation seemed like a good vehicle at the time. I make no claim to have the book all figured out and what I know for sure today (in my mind) God could easily prove wrong tomorrow. So unless someone has further comments or objections, I'll take my leave of the discussion.
Lurker, there may be temptation to read into a text more than is there. The revelation is Christ Himself in Romans, I don't see it as complicated as you are saying, where Revelations is the veil and the veil is the law and the veil is the mystery. Just as I don't see Paul's physical blindness as him being spiritually blind for three days, and in fact works against the text.
Although the genre is an unveiling through imagery, I think the first Christians had things a bit simpler. The imagery was common to them.
So I'll go back to some of my fundamentals here, that Christians should be good bereans and study the Word and should have the influence of a learned teacher that has done the backgrounds (a weakness for those who shun backgrounds, Greek learning).
There are many giftings in the Body and some are not called to the intense study, to street preaching for instance, but we need a plurality of giftings hearing each other out, and when we don't there are holes.
In this case, Revelations has been lost in some ways, in the popular sense.
I was reading from Triumph of the Lamb by Dennis Johnson and struck by the backgrounds of the churches, where they were and what they were up against. Helped me to understand the text better.
Lurker wrote: But, praise God, His grace was revealed to Gentiles beginning with Paul's ministry.
A little meat for this bone.....
Rom 16:25-27 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, **according to the revelation of the mystery**, which was kept secret since the world began,
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
"the revelation of the mystery".... the same mystery of Rev 10:7.... the little open book of life...... made manifest to Gentiles by the commandment of God.
Its difficult at times to make a point in 1300 characters. In reviewing my post below, the point is likely unclear.
The point: It isn't the book of Revelation which is unsealed or unveiled...... it is the book of life, sealed to the Jews by the veil of the law till the time of the end:
Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal *the book*, even to the time of the end.
Dan 8:7 Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be *the vision*.
The Jews were blinded by the law:
2 Cor 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
It is also the "little open book" John was given at the sounding of the 7th trump (Rev 10). Compare to:
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and **another book was opened, which is the book of life**: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
"another book was opened" implies it was sealed till to the moment of the great white throne judgment which is consistent with Daniel. That it was already opened at Rev 10 ties the timeline of the 7th trump to the great white throne judgment.
pennned wrote: Revelation means apocalypsis, removal of a veil.
This may touch on some points bro. Mike brought up.
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
The mystery of God.... declared in the prophets:
Is 25:8 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away...
The veil is destroyed when death is swallowed in victory.
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
When? At the last trump (1 Cor 15:52), the 7th trump (Rev 10:7). Daniel tells us its a book which is sealed to his people, the Jews; the book of life aka the covenant of the grace of God, sealed to them by the law (veil) in which they must remain (1 Cor 7:18) till the end.
But, praise God, His grace was revealed to Gentiles beginning with Paul's ministry.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: Given that the events of chapter 19 are actual and that what is in chapter 20:10-15 are actual, how does one rule that 20:1-9 is... allegorical without violating the principle of being objective to Scripture...
Tough question, bro.
You used the terms "actual" and "allegorical" to describe the first and second resurrection/judgment (actual) and the reign of Christ ending with the rise of Gog (allegorical). I wouldn't characterize these times/events in those terms. I believe we can agree that Rev 19-20 describes:
1) The first resurrection/judgment. 2) The reign of Christ. 3) The rise of Gog/tribulation. 4) The final resurrection/judgment.
Within these times/events are figures which need to be translated into spiritual realities eg: white horse, rod of iron, new name (inside a white stone, Rev 2:17), bottomless pit, Gog, books, book of life, etc. As for the duration of the reign of Christ; Isaiah 24:22 says "many days". If the duration was a literal 1,000 years it seems the only prophecy which specifically points to it would agree.
In answer to your question; many times good and necessary consequence is the only way to arrive at an understanding but GNC must always stand the test of non-contradiction.
pennned wrote: literature .. where truth is revealed through imagery, and we juxstapose that imagery only veils, then how are we to read it?
Sorry, penned, imagery should not mean abstract or 'hidden'. A profitable way to read Scriptures is without preconceived ideas or colored glasses. The futuristic position has marred the predisposition in many readers. It is wise to seek for the terms/concepts found, in other parts of Scripture. For instance, the Serpent: going back to Genesis one knows what this stands for. Also there are intrinsic clues. For instance it is easy to spot who the child is in chpt 12: "a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne"
Detailed imagery enriches/enlarges understanding, rather than obscure or restrain it. See v 1 "a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet" compare this with Gen 1:14 where it is said what the sun/moon were made for: to divide/order times and seasons, so Israel was to the world
"upon her head a crown of twelve stars" The 12 tribes of Israel were represented in the breastplate of the High Priest with 12 jewels
The rest of the chapter goes on to narrate the hapennings of Redemption as viewed from heaven.
Mike wrote: Unveiling â€¦ symbols â€¦ Discernment â€¦
The first verse of Rev states the purpose of the book:
"The *Revelation* of Jesus Christ, which God gave .. to *show* ... things which must *shortly* come to pass; and he .. *signified* it ... unto â€¦ John"
Key words * Revelation = to bring to the open * Show = to be made openly manifest * Signify = to indicate, point out to * Shortly = in a brief space of time, or eminently
The letter kills, so the literal interpretation of allegoric literature kills the spirit of what it conveys. The spirit (the spiritual content it points to, or signifies) gives life
Often trouble comes by preconceived ideas fabricated in the futuristic camp.
Unfair seeking has no rewards. See Mat 16 "The Pharisees .. with the Sadducees â€¦ tempting desired him that he would show them a sign O .. hypocrites, ye can discern the face (appearance) of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed"
Significantly a *literal* sign was given (Jonahâ€™s 3 days in the fish's belly) which represented a particular true event, but not the same thing
Still interesting how that which is an unveiling could be seen as so thoroughly veiled in symbolism. As Rev 22:10 says,
"And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand."
Which is in contrast to that which was told Daniel (12:4)
"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."
Perhaps we need not make too cloudy that which has defined itself as an unveiling. Then we might ask, if it is open and to be understood,(unveiled) why do we not approach it that way, rather than rummaging around to discover what some of those symbols we might have ourselves made, mean? Discernment as to which are symbolic representations, and which are literal realities would be useful.
John UK wrote: 1) One of the things I find hard about the Revelation is the complete lack of chronology. If all was in order, it would be simpler to grasp.
2) However, the seven seals, seven trumpets, great white throne judgment utilising the Great Law, followed by the eternal reign of Christ, i.e. eternity with new heavens and earth. Where comes the second advent in relation to this scenario, bro?
1) Yes, the lack of a readily discernable chronology does make it a challenge. But..... the book is not without chronological order in its parts. Its just that the parts must be identified and overlain as I mentioned earlier with the analogy of the overhead projector and the transparencies.
2) Well bro., at the last (7th) trump Paul wrote of which marks the end of the 70th week as well as the beginning of the last (2nd) resurrection of Daniel 12:1-4. Take a look at the picture painted in Daniel 12:5-7 and compare it the fulfillment of that picture with another picture painted in Rev 10:5-7. The fulfillment is when the 7th (last) trump begins to sound.
Also, Penny's post jogged my memory and I want to post something about the finishing of the mystery of God mentioned in Rev 10:7.
Again, out of time for now..... more later for brother US.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: Given that the events of chapter 19 are actual and that what is in chapter 20:10-15 are actual, how does one rule that 20:1-9 is, as it has been termed, allegorical without violating the principle of being objective to Scripture and not subjective to one's personal eschatological bent?
Hey bro. US,
I'm short of time at present but perhaps a little later I can attempt an answer. You ask a great question and I'll have to think on it a while in hope of coming up with an intelligible reply. Also, both you and John brought up chronology and that is also something I've had in mind to discuss.
John, not passing over your post..... I'll catch up later.
is to be seen, is a book of symbols in motion what we see with our fleshly eyes is not the true reality at all, and so God is revealing the true nature of things. for instance the church at Smyrna appears poor. With our mortal eyes we would call them poor. But God calls them rich. From His perspective, the heavenly (the true and right) persepective.
Revelation is filled with OT symbolism, like the ancient of days of Daniel
Numbers have meaning in the text. the seven spirits of God does not literally mean He has seven spirits but that His Spirit is completing His Work, is Omniscient and Omnipresent.... again, the true perspective. We do not see with our mortal eyes the Spirit of God, but in Revelations we see the seven spirits. we also see multiples of 10s and 12 (number of God's people)
the book takes place soon -- Christians are continually experiencing it
the book is for the persecuted. prosperity teachers need not apply. white garments of the victor are present reality. again in the flesh, the martyr is a lifeless victim, from the heavenly perspective they are the victors in heaven, and Christ ready to vindicate them.
Brother Lurker, great posts as usual. Seeing that some others have set up this question for me, I will ask it. You have already noted that the book of Revelation is not in chronological order and that may be the answer.
Given that the events of chapter 19 are actual and that what is in chapter 20:10-15 are actual, how does one rule that 20:1-9 is, as it has been termed, allegorical without violating the principle of being objective to Scripture and not subjective to one's personal eschatological bent? I am not trying to argue for a millennial reign or a pre-trib position,(not wanting that debate) just trying to follow the reasoning, thanks.
p.s. knowing your depth, I do recognize that 1300 characters makes answering my question somewhat difficult, maybe brother James could post responses also to keep the flow of thought going.
Lurker wrote: Oops! Thoughts on my subsequent post?
Ah, this one?
[The time of the 7 seals is judgment day and the unsealed book is the means. Same as the judgment of Rev 19... just a different way of expressing it by the mind of God.
In the preceding post I showed how we can know what the unsealed book is. Now I'll attempt to establish the judgment during the 7 seals is the same as the judgment of Rev 19. Not quite as easy.
The 7 seals are followed by 7 trumpets. At the sounding of the last trump we read: Rev 11:15 The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
The temporal reign is past, the great white throne judgment is past.... the eternal reign begins.]
One of the things I find hard about the Revelation is the complete lack of chronology. If all was in order, it would be simpler to grasp.
However, the seven seals, seven trumpets, great white throne judgment utilising the Great Law, followed by the eternal reign of Christ, i.e. eternity with new heavens and earth. Where comes the second advent in relation to this scenario, bro?