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Breaking News All | United Prayer | SA Center | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  12/5/2021
WEDNESDAY, DEC 17, 2014  |  37 comments
CEO Archbishop: ‘There Is a Possibility That We Will Not Hold Together'

In a lengthy interview in The Times of London, Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby predicted that the Anglican Communion might not hold together because of strong disagreements on the ordination of women as bishops and full rights for LGBT people.

The candid interview came at the end of Welby's visits to the 38 provinces (or country-states) that make up the Anglican Communion.

Welby said that although individual churches remain "strong, resilient and thriving," the differences among them remain profound. ...


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Attitude Toward Homosexuality?
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News Item12/20/14 4:23 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
John of UK, I would also suggest that you listen to at least some of the sermons on Revelation by Gil Rugh, [URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?seriesOnly=true&currSection=sermonstopic&sourceid=soundwords&keyword=Revelation+Series+2008&keyworddesc=Revelation+Series+2008]]]Revelation Series 2008[/URL] and of course get a proper perspective on [URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=5504173329]]]Dispensations[/URL].
37

News Item12/20/14 3:54 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
You're right John, I don't speculate. I am absolutely settled with my interpretation of the book. But....... I would be hard pressed to string together a few verses to establish by belief for your benefit. Sometimes what something figures can only be learned by taking in all the surrounding context and learning what was going on at the time. In this case, the opening of the seals was leading up to the judgment of the first resurrection and there can be no just condemnation of unrepentant sinners to the lake of fire if sin can't be imputed which demands the law.
That said, I wouldn't want you to take my word on this and consider it settled. Only the Word can do that for you.
The ark of the covenant; the Decalogue locked away (sealed) with God sitting on it as the mercy seat, throne of grace. And He made reference to the tables as His "secret things" (Deut 29:29) and His "treasures" (Deut 32:34). But He brought them against His rebellious people in judgment (Jer 11:8).
Thanks, saints Lurker and James. I shall bear all this in mind as I go through the Revelations.
36

News Item12/19/14 9:03 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
The other thing, that little book? Now Lurker, it is not like you to speculate. Not that speculating is wrong, if there is sufficient inference. Mind you, the tablets were locked away in the ark of the covenant, along with a pot of manna and Aaron's rod that budded.
You're right John, I don't speculate. I am absolutely settled with my interpretation of the book. But....... I would be hard pressed to string together a few verses to establish by belief for your benefit. Sometimes what something figures can only be learned by taking in all the surrounding context and learning what was going on at the time. In this case, the opening of the seals was leading up to the judgment of the first resurrection and there can be no just condemnation of unrepentant sinners to the lake of fire if sin can't be imputed which demands the law.

That said, I wouldn't want you to take my word on this and consider it settled. Only the Word can do that for you.

The ark of the covenant; the Decalogue locked away (sealed) with God sitting on it as the mercy seat, throne of grace. And He made reference to the tables as His "secret things" (Deut 29:29) and His "treasures" (Deut 32:34). But He brought them against His rebellious people in judgment (Jer 11:8).

35

News Item12/19/14 7:56 PM
James Thomas | Florida  Find all comments by James Thomas
John UK wrote:
The other thing, that little book? Mind you, the tablets were locked away in the ark of the covenant, along with a pot of manna and Aaron's rod that budded.
This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our fathers. He received living oracles to give to us.
(Acts 7:38 ESV)

Here the law is described as Living oracles. The living oracles being a spiritual reality that was already in existence before a physical tablet was given to Moses.

34

News Item12/19/14 5:11 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
Full preterism? Built on the assumption everything was fulfilled 70 AD. If that be true, then the proponents should be able to write entire books explaining how and when all the mysterious events of the Revelation were fulfilled in historic reality. They should be able to identify all the mysterious figures and match them up with 1st century AD realities. I'm not aware of any such books.
Anyway, the reason I replied to your question was I had just read the Revelation the evening before and it was fresh in my mind. And, of course, Steve's egging me on prompted me to look into the idea you posted about the 24 elders and I'm glad I did. I needed to work that through anyway.
Why was the seals on the book removed? "that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God".
The Lamb was worthy being the only one to fulfill the law.
Preterism? Is that what they believe? Sounds a bit odd to me, well, extremely odd.

The other thing, that little book? Now Lurker, it is not like you to speculate. Not that speculating is wrong, if there is sufficient inference. Mind you, the tablets were locked away in the ark of the covenant, along with a pot of manna and Aaron's rod that budded.

33

News Item12/19/14 2:55 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
SteveR, [URL=http://www.raptureme.com/rr-preterism.html]]]Preterism! I Can't Believe It![/URL], the only proper way to interpret the Bible is to realize [URL=http://www.raptureme.com/featured/ice/TheLiteralFulfillmentofBibleProphecy.html]]]The Literal Fulfillment of Bible Prophecy[/URL].
32

News Item12/19/14 2:08 PM
SteveR | Mt Zion  Find all comments by SteveR
Lurker wrote:
Full preterism? Built on the assumption everything was fulfilled 70 AD. If that be true, then the proponents should be able to write entire books explaining how and when all the mysterious events of the Revelation were fulfilled in historic reality. They should be able to identify all the mysterious figures and match them up with 1st century AD realities. I'm not aware of any such books.
Anyway, the reason I replied to your question was I had just read the Revelation the evening before and it was fresh in my mind. And, of course, Steve's egging me on prompted me to look into the idea you posted about the 24 elders and I'm glad I did. I needed to work that through anyway.
Why was the seals on the book removed? "that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God".
The Lamb was worthy being the only one to fulfill the law.
egging?

Lurker Lurker Lurker,
'Egging me on' is a phrase used when someone is encouraging you to do some unwise, illegal or harmful action, not positive. By your own admission, you were 'glad' about the 'prompt.'

31

News Item12/19/14 12:29 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
Saint Lurker, thanks for the extra scriptures and greek concerning the thrones, it's very interesting. I just wish I had more brainpower to take it all in and work it all out. Them Revelations sure are cloudy. I used to try the commentaries to see if they would help, but it seems theologians had a hard time of it as well, some saying that it had all come to pass already. Could it be?
Full preterism? Built on the assumption everything was fulfilled 70 AD. If that be true, then the proponents should be able to write entire books explaining how and when all the mysterious events of the Revelation were fulfilled in historic reality. They should be able to identify all the mysterious figures and match them up with 1st century AD realities. I'm not aware of any such books.

Anyway, the reason I replied to your question was I had just read the Revelation the evening before and it was fresh in my mind. And, of course, Steve's egging me on prompted me to look into the idea you posted about the 24 elders and I'm glad I did. I needed to work that through anyway.

Why was the seals on the book removed? "that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God".

The Lamb was worthy being the only one to fulfill the law.

30

News Item12/19/14 10:23 AM
James Thomas | Florida  Find all comments by James Thomas
John UK wrote:
Saint James, I don't see what Romans 2:12 has to do with it. Please?
As for:
Revelation 5:1-2 KJV
(1) And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
(2) And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
If it was the law, or even some scriptures, how come it was sealed up? Would it not rather be to do with endtime prophecy which had never been seen before? I don't know the answer, just grappling with it.
Romans 2:12 (KJV)
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

I was a little vague. Sorry...."Judged by the law" was the emphasis I was trying to convey as Brother Lurker provided the setting of the judgment of the first resurrection. Can't judge without the law.

Why was it sealed?
The law is used upon exercising judgment and is sealed until a time God has chose.

have to cut it short for now...will add to later. Perhaps Brother Lurker will comment on your questions too.

29

News Item12/19/14 9:03 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
James Thomas wrote:
Good Morning to you!
St John of UK,
I am not sure what else it could be other than the law. A Look at verse
Romans 2:12 validates the Scriptural interpretation that Brother Lurker provided.
Saint James, I don't see what Romans 2:12 has to do with it. Please?

As for:
Revelation 5:1-2 KJV
(1) And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
(2) And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

If it was the law, or even some scriptures, how come it was sealed up? Would it not rather be to do with endtime prophecy which had never been seen before? I don't know the answer, just grappling with it.

28

News Item12/19/14 8:34 AM
James Thomas | Florida  Find all comments by James Thomas
John UK wrote:
Good morning St James. Yes I think that was what St Lurker was hinting at. I believe a lot of the Revelation was previously foretold by the prophets of old, so it could well have been The Law. But not necessarily, as other books have been written within and without as we know, a multitude.
____________
Saint Lurker, thanks for the extra scriptures and greek concerning the thrones, it's very interesting. I just wish I had more brainpower to take it all in and work it all out. Them Revelations sure are cloudy. I used to try the commentaries to see if they would help, but it seems theologians had a hard time of it as well, some saying that it had all come to pass already. Could it be?
Good Morning to you!
St John of UK,
I am not sure what else it could be other than the law. A Look at verse
Romans 2:12 validates the Scriptural interpretation that Brother Lurker provided.
27

News Item12/19/14 5:03 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
James Thomas wrote:
Saint John of UK,
Brother Lurker has provided the Scriptural interpretation that the book in question would be....The Law.
Good morning St James. Yes I think that was what St Lurker was hinting at. I believe a lot of the Revelation was previously foretold by the prophets of old, so it could well have been The Law. But not necessarily, as other books have been written within and without as we know, a multitude.
____________

Saint Lurker, thanks for the extra scriptures and greek concerning the thrones, it's very interesting. I just wish I had more brainpower to take it all in and work it all out. Them Revelations sure are cloudy. I used to try the commentaries to see if they would help, but it seems theologians had a hard time of it as well, some saying that it had all come to pass already. Could it be?

26

News Item12/19/14 12:22 AM
Wow  Find all comments by Wow
Michael Hranek wrote:
SteveR
Your problem is not with dumb baptists but between yourself and God
Hint: We baptist-types could be potentially the worst of sinners and you could do your best to ridicule us etc etc and all that would not make you right with God and btw for all of us who are genuinely born again of the Holy Spirit, not just born again Baptists, the Lord Jesus Christ is our righteousness
And Jesuits would still be in desperate need of repentance and the ecumenically deceived and decievers too
Br. Michael Hranek: Know For A FACT That "Je[w]suits" &-Or "Je[w]suitics" Like "stever / mt zion[ist]" & his ilk Will Surely Burn In The Flames Of Fire In Hell-Fire & The Eternal Lake Of Fire If They Don't Repent !

Speaking To Them Directly &-Or Even Communicating With Them Directly Or Privately Is Only ***Giving That Which Is Holy Unto DOGS*** Or ***Casting Your Pearls Before SWINE*** !

The "JE[W]SUITS" &-OR "JE[W]SUITICS" WHO POST THEIR BLASPHEMOUS, UNGODLY & WORTHLESS COMMENTS ON THIS ILLUMINATI-CONTROLLED WEBSITE KNOW WHO I AM: AS I DEFINITELY KNOW WHO THEY ARE !

AS GOD, THE HOLY SPIRIT CAN MAKE ME KNOW, BY PRIVATE-GODSENT-DREAMS OR DIVINE-ILLUMINATION: WHAT THEY SAY &-OR PLOT IN THEIR VERY OWN BEDROOMS &-OR SECRET SIN-SICK HELL-HOLES !

25

News Item12/18/14 9:45 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
The 24 elders: seeing as the New Jerusalem had 12 foundations of apostles and twelve walls of 12 tribes of Israel, I thought the elders might be figurative for these 24.
I've seen that interpretation and it sounds reasonable but reasonable is not necessarily biblical.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The word "seat" used to describe the 24 seats of the elders is actually the same Greek word for throne. So there is a cross reference which accounts for 12 of the 24 elders being the apostles so by good and necessary consequence, I can see that the other 12 elders would be the heads of the tribes of Israel based on Rev 21:12-14.

The only question remaining; is the timeline of Rev 4 compatible with "the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory"?

Rev 5:11 (before the 1st seal was opened) "the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands" compared to Daniel 7:10 (same wording) and 7:13-14 son of man receiving the kingdom of God....... I'd say yes.

24

News Item12/18/14 7:49 PM
James Thomas | Florida  Find all comments by James Thomas
John UK wrote:
Now this little book.........
Saint John of UK,

Brother Lurker has provided the Scriptural interpretation that the book in question would be....The Law.

23

News Item12/18/14 4:04 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:

I believe I did answer the original question, Steve. What do you think, John? Did I answer your question?
John seemed to think the crowns implied post resurrection probably because of 2 Tim 4:8 but that wouldn't answer the crowns on the heads of locusts (Rev 9:7), the 7 heads of the dragon (Rev 12:3) or the 10 crowns on the 10 horns of the sea beast (Rev 13:1). Crowns don't always imply victory over death.
As far as the identity of the 24 elders, I honestly don't know. If you can help both John and me out with that, I'm open for instruction.
You sure did, Lurker. I figured that spirits could not have crowns because of there being no heads.

The 24 elders: seeing as the New Jerusalem had 12 foundations of apostles and twelve walls of 12 tribes of Israel, I thought the elders might be figurative for these 24.

Now this little book.........

SteveR, if you wish to have a shot at this, do please have a go at edification rather than condemning us all and sundry.

22

News Item12/18/14 4:01 PM
SteveR | Mt Zion  Find all comments by SteveR
Lurker wrote:

I believe I did answer the original question, Steve. What do you think, John? Did I answer your question?
John seemed to think the crowns implied post resurrection probably because of 2 Tim 4:8 but that wouldn't answer the crowns on the heads of locusts (Rev 9:7), the 7 heads of the dragon (Rev 12:3) or the 10 crowns on the 10 horns of the sea beast (Rev 13:1). Crowns don't always imply victory over death.
As far as the identity of the 24 elders, I honestly don't know. If you can help both John and me out with that, I'm open for instruction.
It was in the spirit of the question, and when has not knowing ever stopped you from offering a speculation? Are you that puzzled?
21

News Item12/18/14 3:38 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
SteveR wrote:
Good Morning Lurker
Helen Keller and Observer could have offered John UK similar responses. OK, Perhaps Im exaggerating about Observer.
Dont you think you should answer the original question? Dont get me wrong, Im glad John UK woke you up from your slumber. But you need to answer who the elders and creatures are, and why they are worshipping in the manner they are.

I believe I did answer the original question, Steve. What do you think, John? Did I answer your question?

John seemed to think the crowns implied post resurrection probably because of 2 Tim 4:8 but that wouldn't answer the crowns on the heads of locusts (Rev 9:7), the 7 heads of the dragon (Rev 12:3) or the 10 crowns on the 10 horns of the sea beast (Rev 13:1). Crowns don't always imply victory over death.

As far as the identity of the 24 elders, I honestly don't know. If you can help both John and me out with that, I'm open for instruction.

20

News Item12/18/14 3:20 PM
SteveR | Mt Zion  Find all comments by SteveR
Lurker wrote:
I remember the first time I read the Revelation...... when I got to the end my thoughts were 'Is that all there is?'
One thing I'd pass on for your benefit..... the book sealed with 7 seals. What is it? A tiny but important clue:
Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne **a book written within and on the backside**, sealed with seven seals.
Ezek 2:9-10 And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein; And he spread it before me; **and it was written within and without**: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe.
z
Good Morning Lurker

Helen Keller and Observer could have offered John UK similar responses. OK, Perhaps Im exaggerating about Observer.

Dont you think you should answer the original question? Dont get me wrong, Im glad John UK woke you up from your slumber. But you need to answer who the elders and creatures are, and why they are worshipping in the manner they are.

19

News Item12/18/14 3:00 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
Thanks Lurker. I'm in the Revelations on my daily readings, and it never fails to make my head spin.
I remember the first time I read the Revelation...... when I got to the end my thoughts were 'Is that all there is?'

One thing I'd pass on for your benefit..... the book sealed with 7 seals. What is it? A tiny but important clue:

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne **a book written within and on the backside**, sealed with seven seals.

Ezek 2:9-10 And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein; And he spread it before me; **and it was written within and without**: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe.

Exo 32:15 (ESV) Then Moses turned and went down from the mountain with the two tablets of the testimony in his hand, **tablets that were written on both sides; on the front and on the back they were written.**

(I normally quote from the KJV but in this case the ESV gives a clearer rendering which is consistent with the other texts.)

When all the seals were opened, the judgment of the first resurrection was set (Daniel 7:10, Rev 19). (Note Dan 7:11-12 corresponds with Rev 19:20.)

Good reading, brother.

18
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