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Breaking News All | United Prayer | SA Center | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  10/21/2021
TUESDAY, APR 5, 2011  |  102 comments
Petraeus Says Quran Burning Endangers War Effort
The Quran burning by a Florida church, which sparked three days of deadly rioting in Afghanistan, poses new dangers for the U.S.-led war effort against the Taliban, coalition commander U.S. Gen. David Petraeus warned in an interview.

Gen. Petraeus, who commands some 150,000 U.S. and allied troops here, spoke after Afghan rioters angered by reports of the sacrilege sacked the United Nations compound in the city of Mazar-e-Sharif, killing seven foreigners, and went on a lethal rampage in the southern city of Kandahar, waving Taliban flags. ...


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Should we kill Muslims?
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  Recommended sermons | more..
•  The Basics of Islam • Dr. James White | 6/3/2011
•  Muhammad -- The False Prophet • Dr. Mark Allison | 9/15/2002
•  Islam: America's #1 Enemy • Marc Monte | 9/7/2003
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News Item4/24/11 2:44 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
Publicity seeker strikes again!

[URL=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703434004576281051076430970.html?mod=googlenews_wsj]]]Pastor Turns Focus to City Hall[/URL]. I think they did throw him in jail. but not to worry, a lot of you fellows have been bad-mouthing the ACLU, and they are defending him, as one commenter to this article,[URL=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/23/terry-jones-jailed-michigan_n_852916.html]]]Terry Jones, The Quran-Burning Pastor, Jailed In Dearborn, Michigan[/URL] ,said "a match made in heaven."

102

News Item4/10/11 7:18 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
qaton wrote:
---
I wondered if Mike's premise came from the Arminian theory of man having a part to play, viz works based, or man's capacity of "free-will" being able to "faith" and/or loss of salvation, thus "cooperate" with the Spirit or not as the case may be. Thus some control vested within the mortal. This would suggest some measure of "worthyness."
I do apologise if I read you and Mike wrong.
---
No need for apologies, even if you yet think me Arminian. Iron sharpens iron, so it is said. That's a good thing. If we didn't hash things out, we might sit in our room, concluding we have everything right, and wish the Holy Spirit would lead the other guy into all truth. We don't do that, do we? Now if I could just convince you that your favorite flower has too many points....
101

News Item4/10/11 5:59 PM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
qaton wrote:
Forgive me if I read you wrong John.
.....
You came in and seemed to follow the line of mike with - "It's a bit like saying "I do not deserve God's grace."
Which seemed to contribute to Mike's position and disagree with mine.
That is okay my friend, the writing was short but not easy to grapple with.

The simple fact is that "grace" **is** undeserved, while "work" has its reward or payment.

If anyone says, "I do not deserve God's grace", they are not really making a statement, they are trying to define what grace is. But if that is what they want to achieve, it is better just to define what grace is. Once the word grace is understood, it is nonsensical to include the word "deserve" in the same breath.

Similarly, because the human race is federally headed by Adam, we are all sinners who are condemned already. The "salvation" of God means that we are in a position that requires someone to do something for us that we cannot do ourselves. Worthiness or unworthiness does not come into it, the wonderful thing is that the Lord has chosen to save sinners. Cf. "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.."

p.s. I'm not all that good with words, being an ol' turnip an' all.

100

News Item4/10/11 5:09 PM
qaton  Find all comments by qaton
John UK wrote:
do you imagine that is what I am saying?
Forgive me if I read you wrong John.
It was just that Mike's premise was that "worthy" or Unworthy" did not play any part in the great scheme of things. Whilst I believe that NONE of us are ever worthy of Christ's sacrifice or indeed God's election.
Therefore the term "unworthy" I see as very relevant to our wretched estate here on earth as Paul points to.

You came in and seemed to follow the line of mike with - "It's a bit like saying "I do not deserve God's grace."
Which seemed to contribute to Mike's position and disagree with mine.

I wondered if Mike's premise came from the Arminian theory of man having a part to play, viz works based, or man's capacity of "free-will" being able to "faith" and/or loss of salvation, thus "cooperate" with the Spirit or not as the case may be. Thus some control vested within the mortal. This would suggest some measure of "worthyness."

I do apologise if I read you and Mike wrong.

Thankyou Lurker.

99

News Item4/10/11 2:16 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
qaton wrote:
So what your saying is that you do "deserve" God's grace?

Does this mean Jesus was just doing you a favour on the cross to which you were entitled to?

Does this mean that God "owed" you salvation?

If you are "worthy" [as opposed to unworthy] whether now or pre-conversion does this mean you did not need Christ crucified or His work?

Deu 7:6-8 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you....

1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

As Mike and John both said, it's not about us, what we deserve or not, our worth or lack thereof, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God".... but about God's will (John 1:13), foreknowledge (Rom 8:29) and forelove (Eph 2:4-5, 2 Thes 2:16, 1 John 4:9-10).

98

News Item4/10/11 1:59 PM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
Fulmar wrote:
We know many unconverted people in our communities who are not yet brought to Christ. Have a heart for them John. I refuse to consider them "deluded" because it is not the Christian way, nor witness.
It is not the Christian way for armies to go blast the poor dabs to pieces either. When Jesus wept over Jerusalem he didn't have bullets from a foreign army whistling past his head.

Howbeit, I am not talking about "our communities" but Afghanistan. Do you know what happens when your do-gooding evangelist friends go out there and preach Christ to these poor deluded souls? Hmmm?

BTW, do you have an exposition of the text I put up which was words of Jesus concerning dogs, swine, pearls?

qaton wrote:
John
So what your saying is that you do "deserve" God's grace?
qaton, do you imagine that is what I am saying?

Think about it instead of imagining things. Go on, have a good think, have a drink, and then come back to me when you've got it sussed. But for a clue, please think especially on the definition of the biblical concept of grace. And if you still don't get there, I will explain all.

97

News Item4/10/11 1:30 PM
qaton  Find all comments by qaton
John UK wrote:
It's a bit like saying "I do not deserve God's grace."
John
So what your saying is that you do "deserve" God's grace?

Does this mean Jesus was just doing you a favour on the cross to which you were entitled to?

Does this mean that God "owed" you salvation?

If you are "worthy" [as opposed to unworthy] whether now or pre-conversion does this mean you did not need Christ crucified or His work?

96

News Item4/10/11 12:24 PM
Fulmar  Find all comments by Fulmar
John UK wrote:
Those who are deluded have been deceived, misled or beguiled.

2 Corinthians 11:3 KJV

Romans 7:11 KJV

Titus 3:3 KJV

Any man who imagines that there is no heaven or hell is clearly deceived, and therefore deluded. The god of this world hath blinded the minds of them that believe not

Oh John where on earth are you going with this? Because the word 'deluded' is not in Scripture you go to the dictionary?
Picking out a few relevant synonyms you then belt back to the Bible and hey presto you become "right" and you can now call all non-Christians deluded, because of synonyms?

Its very dangerous territory for Christians to assert themselves to be superior amongst the nations.
Remember these John.
*Be humble - As Jesus is humble.
*Be eternally, graciously, humbly and fervently thankful unto God that He saved such an unworthy wretch as you.
*Be pitiful of the unsaved and unconverted. Jesus wept for Jerusalem.

We know many unconverted people in our communities who are not yet brought to Christ. Have a heart for them John. I refuse to consider them "deluded" because it is not the Christian way, nor witness.

"O wretched man that I am!"
"all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags"

95

News Item4/10/11 7:40 AM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
Mike wrote:
If God does not consider worthiness, neither should you. When you declare man unworthy of salvation, you are considering worthiness as a factor, unlike God, who does not.
Correct, Mike. It's a bit like saying "I do not deserve God's grace."
94

News Item4/10/11 7:32 AM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Fulmar wrote:
Oh Dear?
Mike;
If you consider even remotely that man is "worthy" of salvation then you are not dealing with sin to the fullest extent of man's depravity. In other words we are back to salvation by works however little man can contribute?
As i've said to you before you really need to get rid of this free will armianism and return to good Bible doctrine such as TULIP.
If God does not consider worthiness, neither should you. When you declare man unworthy of salvation, you are considering worthiness as a factor, unlike God, who does not. Sounds a bit like a free will decision to me.

And, burning the Quran is dumb. (for the sake of the topic)

93

News Item4/10/11 7:14 AM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
I am very glad to be talking about the salvation of sinners. Observe

And he [Jesus] said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:15-16 KJV

But then also observe

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Matthew 7:6 KJV

It is to be noticed in the Book of Acts that the Holy Ghost did not always permit the preaching of the gospel in certain places, and these areas were bypassed by the evangelists. And Jesus in the verse above puts limits on those who seek to evangelise.

Now if you apply these things to the modern world, is it not possible that some countries and communities have given up their "right" to have the gospel preached to them, because they kill those who seek to save them? If the verse applies to the drunk man in the street, why not to whole countries of "religiously drunken" men and women?

Besides, it is difficult to preach the gospel when General Petraeus's tomahawk missiles are whistling past your lughole and landing in your congregation, sending them off to hell early.

92

News Item4/10/11 6:04 AM
Fulmar  Find all comments by Fulmar
Mike wrote:
There is no worthiness or unworthiness illustrated by the verse. Only a statement of the condition of man prior to salvation. Since God does not save on the basis of worthiness of the unsaved, man is neither worthy nor unworthy of salvation. Worthiness is not an issue at all.
Oh Dear?
Mike;
If you consider even remotely that man is "worthy" of salvation then you are not dealing with sin to the fullest extent of man's depravity. In other words we are back to salvation by works however little man can contribute?

As i've said to you before you really need to get rid of this free will armianism and return to good Bible doctrine such as TULIP.

______________

Interloperist wrote:
Interesting! It must have been under another name(s) And even after five years, you are still so far off from knowing what he is talking about.
Carry on; or off. Whatever suits you best.
My goodness Interloperist, you really do have judgmentalism off to a tee, don't you!

__________

John
I will come in later and give you some more help with your exegesis.

91

News Item4/9/11 7:58 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Fulmar wrote:
---
Titus 3:3 is merely illustrating how all men are evil hearted sinners unworthy of salvation.
---
There is no worthiness or unworthiness illustrated by the verse. Only a statement of the condition of man prior to salvation. Since God does not save on the basis of worthiness of the unsaved, man is neither worthy nor unworthy of salvation. Worthiness is not an issue at all.
90

News Item4/9/11 6:08 PM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
Interloperist wrote:
Interesting! It must have been under another name(s) And even after five years, you are still so far off from knowing what he is talking about.
Carry on; or off. Whatever suits you best.
Ha! Do you think it is DC?
89

News Item4/9/11 6:04 PM
Interloperist | Grandma's Feather Bed  Find all comments by Interloperist
Fulmar wrote:
Fascinating information!!
I have been debating with John for over five years.
Interesting! It must have been under another name(s) And even after five years, you are still so far off from knowing what he is talking about.

Carry on; or off. Whatever suits you best.

88

News Item4/9/11 5:56 PM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
Fulmar, will you say to God at the bema, "I am a Calvinist?"

Let me help you some more. Praise God that he inspires my love for you.

DELUDE

verb (tr) to deceive the mind or judgment of; mislead; beguile.

Those who are deluded have been deceived, misled or beguiled.

Now do you remember seeing some of those words in the Bible, as....

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2 Corinthians 11:3 KJV

You see that?

For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Romans 7:11 KJV

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Titus 3:3 KJV

Now the word "sometimes" in that verse means "previously", and it includes all men.

Any man who imagines that there is no heaven or hell is clearly deceived, and therefore deluded. The god of this world hath blinded the minds of them that believe not. The gospel is the antidote to delusional thinking. It is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth. Do you see the light in these words?

87

News Item4/9/11 5:34 PM
Fulmar  Find all comments by Fulmar
Interloperist wrote:
2b. You know; the word Bible is not in the Bible?
4. Even though the words "Theology and Calvinist" are not in the Bible; I am one too, and after seeing over 500 of John UK's posts, I'm pretty sure he is one too.
Fascinating information!!

I have been debating with John for over five years.

86

News Item4/9/11 5:25 PM
Interloperist | Grandma's Attic  Find all comments by Interloperist
Fulmar wrote:
2b. The word "deluded" is not in the Bible.

4. My theology differs from you. I am a Calvinist.

2b. You know; the word Bible is not in the Bible?

4. Even though the words "Theology and Calvinist" are not in the Bible; I am one too, and after seeing over 500 of John UK's posts, I'm pretty sure he is one too.

85

News Item4/9/11 5:09 PM
Fulmar  Find all comments by Fulmar
John UK wrote:
1. No I am not calling you a deceiver.

2. Titus 3:3 is not merely illustrating how all men are evil hearted sinners unworthy of salvation.

2b. It says that we were ALL deceived, ALL deluded, before the grace of God came to us.

3. All sinners are slaves to sin, slaves to Satan..... incapable of understanding the simplest spiritual thought.

4. If you do not currently believe this,

5. what you understand the "state of the sinner" to be, before

1. Thats the way your post read.

2. Yes it does.

2b. The word "deluded" is not in the Bible.

3. Correct.

4. My theology differs from you. I am a Calvinist.

5. [State] "But the *NATURAL* man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1Cor 2:14

AFTER::- Eph 2:1 And you hath he *QUICKENED,* who were dead in trespasses and sins;
BEFORE::- 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Before - "dead" in sin.
After - Made alive (quickened) in Christ - the Holy Spirit indwelling then works faith in the heart.

84

News Item4/9/11 2:53 PM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
Fulmar wrote:
Now you are calling me a deceiver!!
Titus 3:3 is merely illustrating how all men are evil hearted sinners unworthy of salvation.
The term "dead" in this sense corresponds to "LIFE" In Christ. In this respect the unconverted are "dead" - But not liable to the allegation of deluded, by you as their judge.
1. No I am not calling you a deceiver.
2. Titus 3:3 is not merely illustrating how all men are evil hearted sinners unworthy of salvation. It says that we were ALL deceived, ALL deluded, before the grace of God came to us.
3. All sinners are slaves to sin, slaves to Satan, dead in trespasses and sins, lost, undone, incapable of understanding the simplest spiritual thought.

If you do not currently believe this, there are plenty of sermons here on SA which will help you.

Or perhaps you would like to explain what you understand the "state of the sinner" to be, before he is wrought on by the power of the Holy Ghost and brought to repentance and faith in Christ.

83
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