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Breaking News All | United Prayer | SA Center | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  9/22/2021
FRIDAY, JUL 10, 2009  |  29 comments
Churches celebrate 500th anniversary of Calvin's birth
“Calvin certainly was not perfect, and it is against the grain of Reformed Christians to foster personality cults,” noted the president of the World Alliance of Reformed Churches, Clifton Kirkpatrick, and general secretary Setri Nyomi.

“John Calvin himself would insist Soli Deo Gloria, only to God be the glory,” they added.

The WARC leaders said Friday should be commemorated in a spirit of gratitude to God for how Calvin's works have inspired a movement of people committed to living faithfully for God in different contexts, and how his legacy continues to inspire believers to be true to God in responding faithfully to current challenges. ...


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News Item8/5/09 11:02 AM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Peasant wrote:
---
He also made a specific point when being born in a stable.
The point made about the lady in Prov 31, is her industry and devotion to her family, rather than "an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations." Don't you think?
---
Jesus' point in being laid in a manger was humility, not poverty. As you recall, there was no room in the inn. No suggestion that they couldn't have paid for it.

You narrowly interpret capitalism, but if you wish...

She invested in and owned means of production:
"She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard."

And "She layeth her hands to the spindle,.."

She seeks flax(v13) with which she makes and sells fine linen(v24) and exchanges wealth with the merchant.(v24)
Making and selling products to middlemen merchants who resell is quite capitalist.

She maintains the quality of her product.(v18)

She is rewarded for her quality, industry and character.(v31)

Yes, she's devoted to her family, and yes, she's a capitalist whose work benefits many, and who is rewarded accordingly.

29

News Item8/4/09 6:45 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Peasant wrote:
---
This is not about your free will again is it Mike.
---
No. But I do have one, just like you!

Will attempt to answer your other question tomorrow, Mr. Peasant. Sleep well.

28

News Item8/4/09 4:50 PM
Peasant  Find all comments by Peasant
Mike wrote:
Might you suppose Jesus, a skilled carpenter at a time when everything was hand built, was poor? It is not having the riches that bind, but the love of riches. (Thou shalt not covet)
What say you of the Proverbs 31 lady? She buys, she makes, she sells, she's a charitable philanthopist....
...Sounds like the best of capitalism to me.
And Jesus left His trade and earning potential to become an impoverished itinerant minister. He also made a specific point when being born in a stable.

The point made about the lady in Prov 31, is her industry and devotion to her family, rather than quote; " an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations." Don't you think?

This is not about your free will again is it Mike.

SteveR wrote:
The redistribution proof text is refuted in the Gospel of Mark where we learn its those that TRUST in riches.
But the statement about access to heaven remains aimed against quote; "the rich man" - Are there rich men who don't "trust" their buying potential, to the extent of Matt 19:21??
27

News Item8/4/09 11:16 AM
SteveR | Upper Midwest  Find all comments by SteveR
Peasant wrote:
Thats nothing! The Son of God said this about rich people.
Matt 19:23 "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
Now that really settles it for "REdistribution of wealth."
Matt 19:21 "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."
Clearly Jesus was no capitalist.
The redistribution proof text is refuted in the Gospel of Mark where we learn its those that TRUST in riches. Trusting in things like US citizenship, Church membership, a social system or anything other than God is a path to perdition. I saythis only because the Social Gospel is abused by some that want to use it for personal benefit and not the benfir of their neighbor.
26

News Item8/4/09 11:05 AM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Peasant wrote:
Thats nothing! The Son of God said this about rich people.
Matt 19:23 "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
Now that really settles it for "REdistribution of wealth."
Matt 19:21 "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."
Clearly Jesus was no capitalist.
Might you suppose Jesus, a skilled carpenter at a time when everything was hand built, was poor? It is not having the riches that bind, but the love of riches. (Thou shalt not covet)

What say you of the Proverbs 31 lady? She buys, she makes, she sells, she's a charitable philanthopist. And none of it involuntarily filtered through big brother first. Sounds like the best of capitalism to me.

25

News Item8/4/09 8:49 AM
Peasant  Find all comments by Peasant
Andrew wrote:
Don’t miss John Calvin's quote about rich people. And we thought that Marx came up with Communism? Then later in the article, it says how greatly John Calvin helped promote Capitalism.
Thats nothing! The Son of God said this about rich people.

Matt 19:23 "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Now that really settles it for "REdistribution of wealth."

Matt 19:21 "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."

Clearly Jesus was no capitalist.

24

News Item8/4/09 5:40 AM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Find all comments by Michael Hranek
Andrew wrote:
Pastor Marc Monte has series on Calvin that I enjoyed and learned from.
[URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=41706211051]]]Calvinism[/URL]
Andrew
Thanks for the series reference. Having been raised Roman Catholic home I have been concerned for years about the Calvin Augustine connection (Calvinism: Calvin and Augustine Part 2) and how Augustine's theology verrs from Paul's in the New Testament.
23

News Item8/3/09 11:21 PM
Andrew | USA  Find all comments by Andrew
Read the entire article "Churches celebrate 500th anniversary of Calvin's birth". Don’t miss John Calvin's quote about rich people. And we thought that Marx came up with Communism? Then later in the article, it says how greatly John Calvin helped promote Capitalism.

I went to the WARC web site referenced in the above article and they have quite an interesting article described with this quote.

"John Calvin wore sun glasses and rapped his story to the tune of the popular music classic, "We will, we will rock you"."

[URL=http://warc.jalb.de/]]]Youth Rap with Calvin[/URL]

Pastor Marc Monte has series on Calvin that I enjoyed and learned from.
[URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=41706211051]]]Calvinism[/URL]

22

News Item7/17/09 5:27 PM
Biblicist  Find all comments by Biblicist
Reformed Theology wrote:
"No one should assume that Calvin either began the Reformed Tradition or that Calvinist perspectives constitute the totality of Reformed thought.
So how has the word become associated almost exclusively with John Calvin and the Presbyterians who closely follow him?

And how would you respond to the following?:

[URL=http://heidelblog.wordpress.com/2008/04/24/who-or-what-defines-reformed/]]] Who or what defines reformed? [/URL]

Would you agree or disagree with it?

21

News Item7/17/09 3:59 PM
Reformed Theology  Find all comments by Reformed Theology
"No one should assume that Calvin either began the Reformed Tradition or that Calvinist perspectives constitute the totality of Reformed thought. Remember that when Calvin stopped in Geneva in 1536 (having only recently come into the Reform himself), he was prevailed upon to stay by Guilliaume Farel. Farel was one of the founders of the Reform in Geneva, which happened the year before Calvin's arrival. In Zurich, Heinrich Bullinger, took over the position of lead pastor for that city in 1531, 12 years after Huldrych Zwingli initiated the Reform in that city. When Calvin was banished from Geneva in 1538, he went to Strasbourg where he learned immense amounts from the leading pastor there, Martin Bucer. Bucer had fostered the Reformation of the city in 1523.

This says nothing of the Reformed tradition as thought and lived in Bern, Constance and Mülhausen, or in France, Germany, Poland, Bohemia, the British Isles or Italy. And, lest we forget, Calvin is not the only Reformed theologian: Zwingli (who died four years before Calvin joined the Reform), Bullinger, Wolfgang Capito, Zacharias Ursinus, Johannes Oecolampadius, Caspar Hedio, Martin Bucer, and Peter Martyr Vermigli all left theological and occasional writings and liturgies, and the list could go on." reformedtheology.org

20

News Item7/13/09 5:51 AM
Biblicist  Find all comments by Biblicist
Z White wrote:
Biblicist:
(1) see above (2) You didn't understand my question: If man determines his own volition, what inclines him to determine his volition a certain way and not another; and what determined THAT inclination...ad infinitum? (3) Things don't "work out" God's way; they infallibly happen in precisely the way He has decreed. A limited god depends on his superior power and knowledge to "outwit" man "in the end," as if in some cosmic chess match. The sovereign God does ALL His pleasure. (4) You confuse His sovereign will (decree) with His moral will (command).
1. You said before that all you did was "evil". That's not the same as saying that in terms of justification there is nothing good that you can do to earn God's favour. Think man!
2. OK, smart guy how do you answer your own question in relation to Adam?
3. No it does not. Your god sounds like a petty tyrant. The true God gives mankind a free volition and then judges them because they fall in with sin. You WOULD HAVE to discount logic because you have cornered yourself and logically cannot get out. As for "vessels", why don't you read 2 Tim 2. 20, 21. This is not a fixed state silly!
4. a) Still no help. b) A creature man in the image of God! Who are you?
19

News Item7/11/09 11:58 PM
pilut | usa  Find all comments by pilut
This is great news! Being a Fundamental Baptist, it always pleases me to be reminded that those who tried to destroy the Church are dead. But God is bigger than John Calvin, and his Church is still alive, just as he said it would be.

Remember it was Martin Luther who said "The Anabaptists should be exercised with the sword"

I love the Holy Spirit discernment these men had.

I'm sure the same spirit that told them Baptists of their day should be murdered is the same spirit that revealed the Doctrines of predestination.

And don't bring up Spurgeon! He was a good man, but he was misguided.

Biblicist...keep it up. I have enjoyed reading your posts.

18

News Item7/11/09 11:23 PM
Z White | Dallas  Find all comments by Z White
Mike: Total depravity does not mean that every man is as evil as he could possibly be; rather, that every aspect of our being is marred by sin. This is why even our "good" (in our estimation) actions are as filthy rags before God: they are tainted by sin, offensive to a holy God.
Biblicist: (1) see above (2) You didn't understand my question: If man determines his own volition, what inclines him to determine his volition a certain way and not another; and what determined THAT inclination...ad infinitum? (3) Things don't "work out" God's way; they infallibly happen in precisely the way He has decreed. A limited god depends on his superior power and knowledge to "outwit" man "in the end," as if in some cosmic chess match. The sovereign God does ALL His pleasure. (4) You confuse His sovereign will (decree) with His moral will (command).
17

News Item7/11/09 7:57 PM
Biblicist  Find all comments by Biblicist
Mike wrote:
Hmmm. Now this makes me wonder how the totally depraved can slip deeper into depravity when they are already in 100%
Mike

Cut him some slack. He is just another unthinking Calvin devotee uttering his mantra.

16

News Item7/11/09 7:54 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Z White wrote:
"How do these dead harden themselves against God, since it is said they are totally dead to any matters of Spirit?"

They don't become "more dead" but continue in deadness as they further disregard God's general revelation and common grace, multiplying their sins and slipping deeper into depravity. The purpose is judgment.

Hmmm. Now this makes me wonder how the totally depraved can slip deeper into depravity when they are already in 100%
15

News Item7/11/09 6:32 PM
Biblicist  Find all comments by Biblicist
Z White wrote:
(1) Yes.
What did you do kill, steal etc. every moment of every day? In which case you should have been put away!

Z White wrote:
(2) What then determines man's volition? And his volition to HAVE a certain volition? What then determines THAT inclination toward this certain volition? etc.ad infinitum.
You are so silly. Volition is man's ability to determine!

Z White wrote:
God's decree is the ultimate cause behind all reality; else how does it come to be?
Only if you have a limited god, who must control all things for things to work out his way!

Z White wrote:
(3) Yes, it makes sense when one lays aside the myth of "free will" and sees all reality as predetermined by God for the purpose of showing forth His unfathomable, infinite, multi-faceted glory.
Do you even read the stuff you write? How preposterous. If he determines and thereby makes all things be as he would have them, how are we "responsible"?

Z White wrote:
4) a) Spiritually dead, not bodily. b) Who are you, O man?
Makes the issue none clearer, except to a calvinist like you.
14

News Item7/11/09 6:06 PM
Z White | Dallas  Find all comments by Z White
Biblicist: (1) Yes. (2) What then determines man's volition? And his volition to HAVE a certain volition? What then determines THAT inclination toward this certain volition?, etc., etc., ad infinitum. God's decree is the ultimate cause behind all reality; else how does it come to be? This is an inescapable fact both Scripturally and logically, unless one claims that the attribute of self-existence does not belong solely to God, which would be ludicrous. (3) Yes, it makes sense when one lays aside the myth of "free will" and sees all reality as predetermined by God for the purpose of showing forth His unfathomable, infinite, multi-faceted glory. And "logic" is irrelevant as to responsibility; we are responsible because He says so, and we know He is just. Remember what I said to Mike about vessels for different purposes. 4) a) Spiritually dead, not bodily. b) Who are you, O man?
13

News Item7/11/09 3:55 PM
Biblicist  Find all comments by Biblicist
Z White wrote:
..man's state as DEAD in trespasses and sins, being ENSLAVED to sin (helplessly inclined to choose evil).
Are you saying before your conversion you were incapable of doing any good, that you HAD to choose evil because of your nature?!!

Z White wrote:
Further, if the will were truly neutral, what but God's decree would account for a decision in EITHER direction?
Man's volition silly!

Z White wrote:
He has determined what we shall do of our own accord.
And this makes sense to you? Ha! You sin, but are still carrying our God's will. Nevertheless you are still culpable? Great piece of logic!

Z White wrote:
They don't become "more dead" but continue in deadness...The purpose is judgment.
You guys are the ones who keep on about being literally "dead". If that is the case what is the purpose of hardening the dead? Is this rigor mortis?! Why judgement? Have they not heaped to themselves enough?
12

News Item7/11/09 2:44 PM
Z White | Dallas  Find all comments by Z White
Mike/NY: "God gives the will; he does not make you use it in a particular way. Augustine: 'Free will, naturally assigned by the Creator to our rational soul, is such a neutral power, as can either incline toward faith, or turn toward unbelief.'" Hardly biblical or even logical, Mike. You are discounting sin-nature and man's state as DEAD in trespasses and sins, being ENSLAVED to sin (helplessly inclined to choose evil). Further, if the will were truly neutral, what but God's decree would account for a decision in EITHER direction? You're right, however, that God doesn't "make" us exercise our wills in a particular way; He has determined what we shall do of our own accord, hence "reasonable self-determination" (willingly exercising our volition, whether or not we realize we are carrying out God's sovereign purposes). "Looks like the spiritually dead must therefore become more dead upon hardening. Else what is the purpose of said hardening? How do these dead harden themselves against God, since it is said they are totally dead to any matters of Spirit?" They don't become "more dead" but continue in deadness as they further disregard God's general revelation and common grace, multiplying their sins and slipping deeper into depravity. The purpose is judgment.
11

News Item7/11/09 2:58 AM
San Jose John | San Jose, CA  Find all comments by San Jose John
Z White wrote:
Mike/NY:
It's called "reasonable self-determination" in Reformed circles: Man has "free will" in that he DOES as he truly DESIRES. The catch is that GOD determines in eternity those desires, which ones will be acted out and which suppressed, and the times and means by which man will carry them out or not. God does not force anyone to act against his "free will," but He certainly determines sovereignly what that "free" will SHALL be, and providentially carries all things to their decreed ends, ALL of which are for His glory and honor alone. In other words, when the spiritually dead harden themselves against God, they are doing precisely as they DESIRE to do; God is not overruling their desperate inward pleas to know Him and be saved (no such desire exists in the natural man!). Some vessels are made for common use, and others for noble use. ALL vessels are made precisely by God as He wishes them to be, and ALL for His glory.
Whew! Trying to understand how even our free will is incorporated into God's soveriegn plan is almost as hard as trying to understand The Trinity. Even with the help of God's word, our "sense", and the writings of great theologions like Calvin and Augustine.
10
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