Two PCUSA presbyteries reject pro-gay clergy measure
WASHINGTON, USA - Two regional bodies of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) have rejected a proposed amendment that would allow non-celibate gays and lesbians to be ordained.
Majorities in the Presbyteries of Central Washington in Washington state and Palo Duro in Texas voted against the measure on Oct. 18. They were among the first, out of the denomination's 173 presbyteries, to vote on the controversial amendment.
In June, the General Assembly ‚Äď PC(USA)'s highest governing body ‚Äď approved an overture that would delete a requirement that clergy live in "fidelity within the covenant of marriage between and a man and a woman, or chastity in singleness" and replace it with language that would not single out a sexual conduct standard....
Christiana wrote: You are always good for levity, DJ. ______ lyn, Where have you been? Thanks for the encouragement. ______ rogerant, No hard feelings. Reciprocated?
I love these discussions and the opportunity to engage in my life's passion.
I rarely get hostile except when others switch there tactics to character attacks.
I know at times that it is hard to express on paper what our positions are. But I can tell when someone's heart has been touched by the saviour, and we must treat them as such.
Some have gifts of teaching, some of faith, some of love, compassion etc. The Lord dispenses different gifts to all his sheep. We are all equal in His sight, and should treat each other accordingly.
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Christiana wrote: What about the mentally ill person? Is there any hope for them? Can they understand a "positional righteousness before a Holy God?" Or, are they doomed to hell?
I'd really like to hear how your Systematic Theology is for anyone other than those gifted with the intelligence to understand.
How DARE you bring me into your squabble with *rogerant* by referring to the "mentally ill person!" And I certainly hope that there's hope for me!
Seriously now ... Do you like to talk and post about theological topics -- sometimes in depth -- or are we all limited to posting only "Jesus loves me this I know 'cause the Bible tells me so" sort of posts here on these SA survey boards.
BTW, this isn't a nursing home ... (however, after reading a few posts by ***A Democratic Conservative***, one might wonder if this isn't an insane asylum)
Christiana wrote: I'd really like to hear how your Systematic Theology is for anyone other than those gifted with the intelligence to understand.
You know how Reformed Theology is good for the likes of these. It is because of predestined grace and a alien righteousness that makes provision for people like these.
The Grace of God preserves His Sheep. He is the one who provides saving faith for them. We can't sell the Holy Spirit short of His ability to make them understand the Gospel.
1 Cor 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
Christiana, AMEN! We have complicated the gospel to the point of needing pocket study tools just to explain, we forget the Holy Spirit is the one who does the work through the word. "And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power" 1 Cor. 2:1,2,4. Many here make it routine to tear down others with their 'superior wisdom'. They would argue with a signpost! God bless you sister!
rogerant wrote: Have I been to a nursing home lately? Most of those people have lost their minds? Please explain
We've spent the past several years with parents in nursing homes, so we see a lot - once strong bodies, practically useless, wearing diapers, but beyond that we see people who mutter gibberish, and stare into oblivion. Some have sweet spirits that can still connect with their eyes and respond to smiles, and there is something of the person still inside. We talk to a retarded girl, and when I ask her if she loves Jesus, she shakes her head "yes." She responds to some religious songs, and I start singing and she can partially mouth the words. Is there any hope for Connie, because I know that she can't understand much more than the name of Jesus.
Is there any reason for all the many worship services to be held for such people who cannot understand - or, can they?
What about the mentally ill person? Is there any hope for them? Can they understand a "positional righteousness before a Holy God?" Or, are they doomed to hell?
I'd really like to hear how your Systematic Theology is for anyone other than those gifted with the intelligence to understand.
Christiana wrote: Have you been to a nursing home lately? Most of the people in there have lost the mind they once had, some of them great scholars. Actually, I think, Jesus says that unless you become like litle children you will not enter heaven.
Have I been to a nursing home lately? Most of those people have lost their minds?
When I explain the Gospel to the little children I do shorten it. When describing the gospel to someone who claims to adhere to Reformed Theology but missrepresents it, I have to get into the details.
Our Lord's exhortation to become like little children meant that were were to accept His teaching as trustworthy, not for us to become naive, shallow consumers of skim milk.
I should have learned from the first time I entered this site as DefenderofTruth, never, never, never label myself as ascribing to a Calvinist/Reformed Theology position. Unless I am a scholar and adhere to every jot and tittle, I am a target of attack.
My relationship with the risen Saviour has gotten me through life and will see me through death, and in the end my understanding of Scripture lining up will Systematic Theology will mean nothing.
Have you been to a nursing home lately? Most of the people in there have lost the mind they once had, some of them great scholars.
In the end, it is the Lord exalted, High and lifted up who gets all the praise, and I am comforted by this statement: He knows His Sheep, and they KNOW Him.
You might want to shorten your gospel message so that a little child could understand. I think there'll be many little ones in Heaven.
Actually, I think, Jesus says that unless you become like litle children you will not enter heaven.
By the blood of Christ we can come before a holy God and plead our case at His throne in His presence without instantly falling over dead(this is the positional righteousness and holiness). At the same time grace teaches us to live godly and by the Holy Ghost given to us we are able to resist the devil and victoriously fight against temptations and fleshly lusts. The Gospel is both positional and transformational. The Reformed doctrines agree perfeclty with what the Apostle says: "Shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid!"
Christiana wrote: This is absolutely false teaching. The reason for proclaiming the Gospel to sinners is that they may be SET FREE from their enslavement to SIN.
On 10/28/08 1:17 PM you posted:
"No, I do not hold to RC views, but to Reformed Theology"
I have never accused you of being a Gnostic, RC, etc. or being unsaved. All I have done is posted that the doctrines that you have posted are inconsistent with Reformed Theology.
The reason for proclaiming the GOSPEL to SINNERS is to proclaim to them the positional vicarious objective imputed righteousness before a Holy God.
Then, after they have accepted this alien righteousness, we exhort them as Christians to live a Holy life. God does provide victory over the bondage of sin in sanctification. Although practical perfection does not arrive until Glorification.
I had your post removed earlier. It was rude, missrepresented my position, accused me of loving my sins, claimed that my gospel was no gospel at all, and that my system of belief is cold, dead orthodoxy, apart from the power of the gospel to save. My posts were a defence of the Reformed Theology that you profess to believe.
BTW Orthodoxy means "within the norm" heterodox is "outside the norm"
rogerant wrote: Presenting the Gospel to a sinner is not to provide them with practical benefits. The reason for proclaiming the Gospel to sinners is to provide them with positional objective righteousness before a Holy God.
This is absolutely false teaching.
The reason for proclaiming the Gospel to sinners is that they may be SET FREE from their enslavement to SIN.
A Democratic Conservative wrote: Even back then, before Dr. Alberto Rivera (The Former High-Ranking Spanish "Jesuit" Priest who was "groomed" for The Office of "Jesuit"-General [aka "Black-Pope"] in the '50s/'60s' BUT Defected The Satanic Vatican in '67; ALSO Exposed Her Infiltrating & Supplanting ALL Major Protestant Denominational Churches Since WWII During The late-'70s, 80s & '90s); The Satanic Roman "Catholic" Cultic "Jesuits" were at work trying to Spritually, Psychologically, Morally & Physically DESTROY The Presbyterian Church USA: through secreting in False, Fake & Phoney "Brethren Crept In Unawares"--By "planting" Avowed-Sodomite Seminarians, Ministers & Presbyters to Destroy American Protestant Presbyterianism from WITHIN ! They're STILL Rabidly Doing it TODAY--With Great Success !--As JUST ONLY "Two PCUSA Presbyteries Reject Pro-[Sodomite] Clergy Measure" !
What utter conspiratorial nonsense. To think that Jesuits were -- and still are -- actually "planting" sodomites within Protestant seminaries and churches is patently absurd ... and laughable!
I think someone didn't like the message, so they shot the messenger re:my previous post.
The message is:
JESUS CAME TO SAVE US FROM OUR SINS!
"But in all these things we OVERWHELMINGLY CONQUER through Him who loved us." Romans 8:37
"But thanks be to God that though you WERE slaves of sin, you became OBEDIENT from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been FREED from SIN, you became slaves of RIGHTEOUSNESS." Romans 6:17,18
"Therefore what BENEFIT were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is DEATH. But now have been FREED from SIN and ENSLAVED to God, you derive your BENEFIT, resulting in SANCTIFICATION and the outcome, eternal life." Rom 6:21,22
"SIN shall NOT be MASTER over you, for you are not under law, but under grace." Rom 6:14
"For the law of the Spirit of LIFE in CHRIST JESUS has SET YOU FREE from the law of SIN and DEATH." Rom 8:2
"However you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God DWELLS in you. . But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give LIFE to your MORTAL bodies through HIS SPIRIT WHO INDWELLS YOU." Rom 8:9-11
I can remember back in the late 1970s; when I was just a young Christian--that Rev. Calvin Marcum (Senior Pastor of The 1st Presbyterian Church in Aurora, IL) led a Group of Conservative Fundamentalist Bible-Believing Presbyterians from Illinois: in an OPEN & PUBLIC REVOLT Against The Presbyterian Church EVER To Even Consider Ordaining Sodomite (Homo-sexaul) Ministers, Pastors, Presbyters, Evangelists or Any Church Leaders within The PCUSA !
Even back then, before Dr. Alberto Rivera (The Former High-Ranking Spanish "Jesuit" Priest who was "groomed" for The Office of "Jesuit"-General [aka "Black-Pope"] in the '50s/'60s' BUT Defected The Satanic Vatican in '67; ALSO Exposed Her Infiltrating & Supplanting ALL Major Protestant Denominational Churches Since WWII During The late-'70s, 80s & '90s); The Satanic Roman "Catholic" Cultic "Jesuits" were at work trying to Spritually, Psychologically, Morally & Physically DESTROY The Presbyterian Church USA: through secreting in False, Fake & Phoney "Brethren Crept In Unawares"--By "planting" Avowed-Sodomite Seminarians, Ministers & Presbyters to Destroy American Protestant Presbyterianism from WITHIN !
They're STILL Rabidly Doing it TODAY--With Great Success !--As JUST ONLY "Two PCUSA Presbyteries Reject Pro-[Sodomite] Clergy Measure" !
Mercy wrote: You forget all the verses that call for obedience. Last post.
I have not forgotten all of the verses that call for obedience. I, and the Reformers do have a doctrine of sanctification where we are called to be Holy.
I have a very good series on the Reformed view of sanctification that I can send you. I am sure you will enjoy it. It is very easy to listen to. I can send it to you if you send me an e-mail on my link.
rogerant wrote: You position is not only not Reformed, it is not even protestant. It is very similar to the doctrines infused righteousness of the Roman Church. If you want to instruct others, make sure that you have sound doctrine and experience. Your view of sanctification can and does leave weak souls to despair.
Where are the rules that one posting on this forum has to ascribe to your views?
Tell me why this is an open forum, if you can dictate to me to go elsewhere?
I do not believe in infused righteousness, but imputed righteousness.
I believe that sin is sin, and that sin damns us to hell.
I believe that Christ died to set me free from the power of sin.
My views are Biblical.
If my view of calling people to obedience makes weak souls despair, your view of a positional relationship only damns them to Hell.
Why do you want to focus on the overwhelming struggle with sins that you think will never be overcome?
Your version of Christianity would coddle men in their sins.
Sanctification begins now.
Holiness begins now.
A born again Believer has a REAL relationship with Christ, not a positional one only.
You forget all the verses that call for obedience.
That is a good point, Rogerant. However, I believe it is honest to say that many "protestant" churches today are teaching a gospel of infused righteousness and cooperation on the part of the individual in order to get to heaven. Such is a gospel of works and implies Christ died in vain.