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Breaking News All | The Vault | United Prayer | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  5/16/2022
SATURDAY, OCT 21, 2006  |  41 comments
Amish practices spring from Bible literalism
The reaction of the Amish community in Lancaster County, Pa., after Charles Roberts gunned down innocent young schoolgirls on Oct. 2 was striking to many commentators.

The Amish take the Bible literally, especially Jesus' admonition, "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (Matthew 5:44). They also obey Paul's teaching to "live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves but leave it to the wrath of God. ... No, if your enemy is hungry, feed him" (Romans 12:18-21).

The Amish are named for Switzerland's Jacob Amman (1644-1720), who broke with the Mennonites, feeling they had drifted from the original strictures of Dutch founder Menno Simons (1496-1561). Both of these Anabaptist groups are forebears of modern-day Baptists. ...


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News Item10/29/06 8:59 PM
cbcpreacher | NY  Find all comments by cbcpreacher
One of the truths of Scripture that you seem to have gotten away from in this whole discussion of election is that it isn't based on God's foreknowledge of future events. Election is based solely on God's soveriegnty. Therefore, what the abortionist does, or if a man were to live an extra 10 years is an invalid point in the whole discussion.
41

News Item10/29/06 5:19 PM
Indian Hiller | Nebraska  Find all comments by Indian Hiller
Neil, Gil Rugh pointed out in his booklet, it was his learned opinion about the ultimate fate of Babies. I would suppose one could say since they all have a sin nature, they may all end up in hell. You may perhaps agree with Gil's generalization they all end up in heaven, or you might take a Calvinist view those that would be part of the Elect would up in heaven if they were predestined to do that by God.

Of course, infant baptism which is an act of others, and not a decision of the infant is meaningless, you cannot pull out an Eternal Life Insurance for a child. Jim from Nebraska

40

News Item10/27/06 5:55 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
Interesting point, Tim. Perhaps I my "which..." should be dropped, as inferring that God's omniscience includes consideration of unrealized future events is an unnecessary rabbit-trail.
39

News Item10/27/06 4:28 PM
Dwayne Mayor | Santa Fe, NM  Find all comments by Dwayne Mayor
Excellent point Tim!
38

News Item10/27/06 5:31 AM
Tim | Sask, Canada  Find all comments by Tim
Jim

I would have to agree with most of the content in the articles from IHCC, but I actually think that the argument from 2 Sam holds more water than he thinks.

Phil johnson has a lecture at http://www.swordandtrowel.org/audio/GL-2005-01-30-PJ.mp3
which I thot was quite good.

Neil
If God in his foreknowledge knows which babies are elect and which are not. What if a 20 year old who lived a life of sin and always hated God dies. Would God know that if he were to live past 32, he would have been drawn to the saviour and be saved?

37

News Item10/26/06 6:40 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
Dwayne, to clarify, I was not intending that my deduction would *disprove* "accountability" as such, only that such an implication should give us pause about it. That was not the crux of my argument, it was an aside.
36

News Item10/26/06 6:22 PM
Dwayne Mayor | Santa Fe, NM  Find all comments by Dwayne Mayor
Neil pretends: "Dwayne, I see nothing illogical about my deduction."

Neil's deduction: "A horrific implication of this "age of accountability" doctrine: if the unborn or babies can't yet sin, then abortionists would be doing them a favor by murdering them!"

Anyone who read my previous point would see clearly the lack of reasoning or logical rigour in this rather puerile argument. He pretends that the unborn being sent to Heaven by abortionists and therefore doing them a "favor," is a "horrific implication" of the age of accountability doctrine. My aforementioned example demonstrates that this is manifestly false.

Another facile argument one could educe based on Neil's fallacious thinking: "A horrific implication of this "damned and elect innocents" doctrine: if some unborn innocents are ELECT, then abortionists would be doing them a favor by murdering them!"

35

News Item10/26/06 4:32 PM
Hattie  Find all comments by Hattie
coora

Thanks coora.
What a good point - and a powerful point.

34

News Item10/26/06 4:23 PM
coora | Australia  Find all comments by coora
The obvious evidence that all babies have a sin nature, is that they die.
33

News Item10/26/06 3:19 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
"All babies have a sin nature ... but they cannot make responsible decisions"

Rugh cites no Biblical evidence for this generalization. How does he know?

32

News Item10/26/06 3:11 PM
Jim | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim
As far as infants are concerned, Tim, I would suggest that you read a Gil Rugh's booklet,

http://www.ihcc.org/images/booklets/pdf/L130.pdf

Like many, IHCC doesn't believe in the entire TULIP of Calvinism, but believe in UNlimited attonement,

http://www.ihcc.org/images/booklets/pdf/L200.pdf

Neil, you should have read the counter-point article to Professor Estep article, which defends Calvinism to a degree as far as Calvinism is concerned,

http://www.westernrecorder.org/wr/wrsite.nsf/stories/200638-PCP-Mohler

Also I will point out you should read the last chapter of THE ANABAPTIST STORY ,by William R. Estep, it is a good history, and he did point out that the Baptists in England either got ideas simliar to Anabaptists, because of similar conditions that the Anabaptists lived in, were exposed to Anabaptist ideas (it was probably impossible not to be. ) or had been Anabaptists once.

I think I do have to agree with you that most Anabaptists were Arminian. (Now see I can correct myself, when forced to! )

31

News Item10/26/06 2:27 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
Dwayne, I see nothing illogical about my deduction.

BTW, I have no idea yet what Calvin thought of this, & for all I know, I may disagree with him as I do on baptism. There may be some Reformed folks that affirm everything Calvin affirmed, but I'm not one of them, so please stop the presumptuous "strawmen."

Tim, at this point I believe some dying infants are damned, & others are elect, since God foreknows all things, which includes what would happen if a child survives.

30

News Item10/26/06 2:19 PM
Dwayne Mayor | Santa Fe, New Mexico  Find all comments by Dwayne Mayor
Very funny, Tim. Very funny, indeed.

Neil illogically reasons:
"if the unborn or babies can't yet sin, then abortionists would be doing them a favor by murdering them!"

How is this any different from saying that Diocletian's dogged persucutions of the Christians was actually a tremendous favor, for (1) it kept the early church relativiely pure and gave them no time to form silly theological dogmas and nonsensical doctrines of demon-infused God-despisers like Calvin, and (2) he sent them on the fast track to Heaven. I doubt I need to elaborate on this obvious point any further.

29

News Item10/25/06 10:47 PM
Tim | Sask, Canada  
Neil

Do you then believe that all infants who die are damned? or are some who die in infancy elect?

28

News Item10/25/06 10:29 PM
Tim | Sask, Canada  
correction: I meant the reformers would agree with Menno on original sin, Not on limited atonement
27

News Item10/25/06 10:13 PM
Neil | Tucson  
"all children who die before they reach the age of understanding are saved through the death of Christ"

That's indeed a Mennonite doctrine (some Baptists I've met believe it too as implied), but in the book of them I have, they give no Scriptural proof of it. How do they know there's no understanding (or thinking) in the womb (e.g. Luke 1:41)? Inability to speak does not imply inability to think, & one's thoughts can be sinful (Prov. 23:6, Matt. 9:4).

Ability to think is also part of our being in the image of God. A horrific implication of this "age of accountability" doctrine: if the unborn or babies can't yet sin, then abortionists would be doing them a favor by murdering them!

26

News Item10/25/06 9:57 PM
Tim | Sask, Canada  
Thanks McCallum for the article although I found exception to one statement in particular. The statement that Smyth was attracted to the Mennonites because of their denial of original sin.

"Menno Simons and Dirk Philips taught that original sin existed but that it was not counted against children.(52) All people were "born of unclean seed" as a result of the fall of Adam, and all are helped and forgiven through the blood of Christ when they believe the promises of God, according to Menno.(53) But to children, who cannot believe the promises of God, "sin is for Jesus's sake not imputed."(54) Children are included in God's promise of eternal life simply by grace,(55) so that all children who die before they reach the age of understanding are saved through the death of Christ, regardless of whether their parents were Christians.(56)

http://www.bethelks.edu/mennonitelife/2006Sept/furmanski.php

I think this statement would agree with the reformers and Spurgeon as well. If I am mistaken in my understanding please correct me.

25

News Item10/25/06 9:53 AM
McCallum  
Tim from Sask.
Here is a little bit of historic info on Smyth and Helwys........

Scroll down to the part on = "The General Baptists"

http://subrationedei.typepad.co.uk/sub_ratione_dei/radical_history/index.html

24

News Item10/25/06 1:54 AM
Tim | Sask, Canada  
On baptism and mennonites

My grandma was raised Mennonite Bretheren and was immersed while my grandpa was Mennonite Conference and was sprinkled but both had to be adults.

23

News Item10/25/06 1:40 AM
Tim | Sask, Canada  
Neil
Two people credited with founding the "General Baptist" denomination are John Smyth (1570-1612) & Thomas Helwys, (c. 1550 - c. 1616. This group as I'm sure you know would not be Calvinist in soteriology. And in 1607-8 migrated to Amsterdam under the influence of Mennonites. Helwys returned to england in 1611. Before his death, Smyth moved away from his Baptist views and began trying to bring his flock into the Mennonite church. Although he died before this happened, most of his congregation did join themselves with the Mennonite church after his death.

I "gleaned" this info from several websites ( mostly wikipedia)

My mother was a mennonite and my Aunt had a book on the history of the Mennonites. In it they refer to Baptists as a break off anabaptist group, because they didn't believe in pacifism. hence why Helwys moved back to England.

You may not agree with this history but Mennonites believe it.

22
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