Pray for wisdom, for God's sake. Then, once wise, proclaim boldly the truth. But for God's and your own sakes, JD, others, read ALL the books in the Bible. JD and anyone who supports man's sovereignty has NOT done this to satisfaction - and I'm calling them a heretic, a false-teacher (Jude-style), and a liar. Not by my standards, but God's.

And before I go, with heavy heart, I ask this: who, with a regenerate holy-spirit-filled heart believes God never uses evil to accomplish His goals? Someone earlier scoffed that God would WANT what happened in Noah's days to happen. And yet it did. Conclusion:? Is God the Lord of all, or has he become the god of the Deists?

Response wrote:
DJC49 and badhorsie777

badhorsie777
Don't you know never to say peace to a heretic? Rather we are to brush the dust off our feet etc.. for there is certain judgement to heretics and we should not compromise with them lest we too share in their judgement!

Instead of posting specific bible verses as support for this position, I recommend anyone reading this take your bible and drop it on its spine. Start reading wherever it opens and tell me if God's enemies are at peace. JD, you should not be sleeping well, nor should ANYONE with these terrible ideas. They come from a depraved mind and are most definitely NOT fruit of a regenerate heart. THAT heart cries Abba, father! Not "God cannot do BLANK without my stamp of approval."

JD wrote:
... God surely didn't choose rape to bring his elect into the world so this person grows up and never becomes reformed.
...God has made a way of salvation to as many as man sovereignly decides of his own free will to bring into the world.
Glory to God!

Your bible contains countless times throughout recorded history when God used evil to bring about his plan. Rahab the prostitute. The Amorite's wickedness, the crucifixion of Christ (which as you recall was intended for evil but God meant for good), Paul's imprisonment which led to his preahcing the gospel in chains, martyrs' blood throughout Christian history...

JD, we know our brothers in Christ by their fruit. Why, when you give glory to man that rightly belongs to God, should I consider you (and you consider yourself) a Christian - quickened and regnerated by the Holy Spirit? You need to repent - you have become a heretic.

Mike wrote:
So what exactly is 1-2-3 repeat after me easy-believism? Is that something described in-
Mark 10:15
"Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein."
(Children are so simple, so ready to believe easily, aren't they?)
Or-
Mark 9:42
"And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea."
Yes, but...children just don't understand how complex it is, do they?

Oh SNAP!

Anon wrote:
So do most Christian parents, but evangelistically, not as though their children had some sort of privilege with God that other unbelieving children do not have!

But they are not Christians until they are converted! You are teaching them to live hypocritically. This is moralism, not Christianity!
I am not saying that to have Children with morals is wrong, but to even suggest to them that they can live as Christians without saving grace is naive and harmful!
Anyway, I'm away for the rest of today. Will look in tomorrow.

Anon wrote:
Well, I inocculate my kids against true christianity. They feel they have done it all and have nothing left to do. They grow up and never have the opportunity that a decision about baptism does to bring absolute clarity to whether they believe or not.

Baptizo wrote:
Badhorsie777
I have no objections to reasoning with people who want to discuss scripture and even church history, but I am afraid I have little time for people like "Paedo Baptist" who just post to rant and display their ignorance!
As for the reformed baptists that you left taking it personally, I think that is human nature and not indicative of correct or incorrect theology. A great many believers believe the right things but nevertheless behave very badly! This is vey sad
I do not agree that rejecting paedo-baptism leads to dispensationalism. For example the British calv Baptists churches have not been tainted with dispy theology, and some of them have been around a long time.
If you care to read a brief article which articulates the Baptist position and also shows the confusion of Presby hermeneutics then I could do not better then refer you to:
[URL=http://www.founders.org/library/welty.html]]]A Critical Evaluation of Paedobaptism[/URL]

Baptizo wrote:
Ignorant ranting!

One of the points that was first raised by my study, with others, was that the OT God promised certain things, certain covenants, including to be a God to the faithful Israelite's children and household. That same God adopts us gentiles into the same family, with promises to make us heirs to Abraham, the "true jew", the church is the "israel of God", etc.

I'm sure this isn't anything you haven't heard, but I'm just testifying that for ME the argument against paedo-baptism led down a slippery slope to dispensationalism - division of nt/ot believer. I know dispys on here who will "amen" that, but I found it very hard as a follower of reformed, covanental thought.

Questions? Comments? Cries of outrage? I ask these things in love, and pray that you and I might exchange ideas without the vile insults so many here use.

But briefly,I can't help but think there is a huge gap between what is actually believed and what is spewed on here. I've been lurking for a while and only started posting a few days ago when I couldn't take it anymore... The thing is this: reformed believers absolutely believe in man's responsibility. The bible DOES command to act in sucha nd such a way, set your mind on this, not that, etc. It is only that we ALSO have to look at verses that declare our inability to do so without a change of heart. I believe whole-heartedly in evangelizing the nations and begging them to repent, because we are commanded to do so. I approach it with more confidence than an arminian, because it does not depend on my eloquence, but God turning the heart.

Now how many Arminians here can see SOMETHING in this post that is common ground? Maybe just enough to love the person you're interacting with? I have tried so hard but kinda feel alone in the effort. How many of us pray before hitting "submit"? We would if it was a letter to a pagan dignitary... why not a professing Christian?

Arminian retort wrote:
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw **all men** unto me !

preacherjond. wrote:
Amen!! God calls, God draws, God convicts, but He leaves it up to the person to make a choice to accept or r

Weapon of Mass Instruction wrote:
You have obviously missed the whole point. ...You are resorting to the straw man of the "whole of Scripture" when I am only asking you for ONE verse: one simple declarative statement from God's word that simply state any of the Calvinistic...

And Yamil, JD - thank you. I don't know your hearts, but I am assuming you are making such a strong push for your interpretation because you genuinely care that I understand it properly, for my benefit and God's glory. I don't agree with you right now, but if I'm right about your motives, then thank you. God will be glorified by meditation on His word.

Weapon of Mass Instruction wrote:

Start with every time God pours out His wrath or threatens it. How about the clay pots who are made as vessels of wrath with no recourse?

Explain to me how a sovereign God with the ability to instill a heart of flesh, or to draw men to Christ, explain how witholding these things, these acts of mercy, to a depraved enemy of God does not demonstrate a predestined, elect few who undeservedly are made to be example of God grace, whilst others are left in their sin to manifest His justice, with all to His glory?

JD, I once was where you are, and trust me when I say you have no idea how powerful YOUR presuppositions are. This rapture theology forces you (and it forced me) to see things as they are not.

Apart from all of that "interfering", I honestly ask you, would any of us choose him? Or better yet, ask yourself this, as it's more practically applicable: In light of all He's done for me, how should I live? Because all discussion aside, that's waaaay more important, and the evidence/fruit of an actual conversion.

Michael Hranek wrote:
For one I would tend to think the ultimate gift that God can give anyone but which He only gives to the saved is Himself, not just a further revelation of Himself.