Lurker wrote:
My objection is not with the doctrines of grace which emerged from Calvin's teachings.
It's with the name association.

Re "name association" in this case I use it because we are talking about Calvinism. John Calvin himself would have been the first to say, 'Stop using my name like this'. But the term used in theological discussion informs and describes where we stand on certain polemic issues. That is four square on Scripture doctrines.

All glory to God our Father, sovereign, omnipotent and omniscient.

Prov 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Lurker wrote:
Your view of God's sovereignty makes Him the author of sin.

Man is born a sinner!

Note...
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. Rom 7.

Lurker wrote:
I didn't realize Sola Scriptura meant exclusive psalmody

Lurker wrote:
1) God also wrote:
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God

2) As I understand your line of reasoning, singing uninspired songs is idolatry but being taught by hearing from the pulpit and studying uninspired doctrines

2) We can all find the command to ""PREACH"" Lurker. But that is not what this debate is about. You cannot excuse yourself rejecting God's Praise Book (Scripture), in favour of mans little ditties. - Not by pinching another precept for a different purpose.

Praise God by using Sola Scriptura!!

Lurker wrote:
4) Both.

no doctrinal error in the lyrics

When in worship you are using mans version of uninspired praise; - How can you be using Scripture at the same time? You Can't! Thus in doing so you have replaced the Word of God, Scripture praise, with mans perceived "amelioration" upon the Word of God.

'doctrinal error'
God wrote the Bible.
(2Peter 1:21 but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost)
God ordained the contents of Scripture.
God ordained and provided the Book of Psalms as praise.

Hymns can only be mans attempt to replace the order, precept and doctrine of the Book of Praise prescribed by God Himself for worship in His Church.

If you and others establish this change/move from Holy Writ; - Then we should not be too surprised to see "Rapping" or Rock as alternatives? even progress? in modern worship today.
Rap then is just a move up from uninspired hymn justification.

Lurker wrote:
Shift the burden of proof. Problem is, what the Apostles and the early church supposedly sang is not in dispute. What is in dispute is your assertion that singing hymns is a violation of the second commandment and therefore sin against God. That, dear misguided brother, is your burden to prove.

I assume from your tenor that you prefer mans hymns to God's Scripture Psalms.

Therefore you must also be open to mans other methods such as "Rapping" and Rock bands etc, by the same token.

This then leads to 'your' focus in praise and worship being inner-self gratification by sensual entertainment, or for self rather than for God. Now we are back to idolatry.

Lurker wrote:
Serious charges, Seaton. Very serious. And not a single biblical reference to establish them.
You would do well to examine yourself for you are doing with a man's doctrine exactly what you charge hymn singers of doing.

I said "rejection of God's praise"
You either use the praise book God has provided or not!
Psalms = God's ordained praise book.
Hymns = Man's alternative substitute. "ersatz?"

Which do you use Lurker - God's or mans?
Do you reject God's praise book in favour of mans?

Lurker wrote:
a hymn is not a graven image and singing a hymn by one born again by the will of God is not a violation of the second commandment

Acts 17:25 Neither is [God] worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Idolatry is not just in an inanimate object, but stems from the sinful heart of man. It is the iniquity of mans desire to fabricate his own religion corresponding to the rejection of God's laws and doctrines.

Lurker wrote:
singing anything as praise except the psalms is a transgression of the second commandment, specifically idolatry.
For this to be true a hymn must meet the biblical definition of an idol. If it can't meet that test then the claim is false.
Now, throughout scripture an idol is something which steals one's heart away from God. It can be a piece of wood, stone, something made with mans hands overlaid with gold or silver, such as the golden calf at the foot of Mount Sinai...."

2nd Commandment, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image..."

"graven image" = man made image.

Book of Psalms = God's Holy Word.

Hymn's = Man made "image" of praise.

If someone wrote their own version of the Book of Isaiah, or the Gospel of John and used it at the expense of the Bible books themselves, then you would be up in arms about it. Yet the "hymn-singers" not only use sinners (graven) works to replace God's Word but try to give it preeminence before God (over Psalms) as "an improvement" to Praise and therefore Holy Word.

Abigail wrote:
You in the Reformed Church pray that ALL SHALL BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST FOR SALVATION? Why would you pray for something you do not believe? Wouldn't that be lying?

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if **any man** hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

By your fruits, I can perceive you have not yet come to the Lord. You have come to church BUT not come to Christ. The Pentecostal church is the same as the Papists - still trying to do it out of human knowledge. May God draw you soon to His Son, then you will come to the True Church.

As for Rev 3:20...
You do realise He is knocking at the door of the church don't you? In this specific case it is the Laodicean church. Which clearly has not yet come to Christ. Just like Pentecostals, Arminians and Roman Catholics.

As Peter reminds us
2Pet 2:1... even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies...
2 And **MANY SHALL FOLLOW** their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

Abigail wrote:
You seem quite certain about who they are. You condemn to hell all that do not believe your Calvinism.

Matt 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore ***BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM.****

We in the Reformed Church pray that all shall believe on Jesus Christ for salvation.

As for Theology or doctrine! - There is NO academic value to salvation.
God is Sovereign as to whom HE Saves!

God be with you!

JD wrote:
To all Calvs.
a simple question, how and why is that good news or glad tidings to the world? ....Why is it good news that almost all the world was created by God to be the object of his hatred and they cannot be saved because they were not "predestined", as you say, to be saved.

John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the WRATH of God abideth on him."

Curious how your works based religion doesn't fit into this verse isn't it JD? EG. If faith is just a human faculty; Why doesn't a verse like this scare the "hell" out of the human race, which you teach is included in the decision process unto salvation?

Ro 1:18 "For the WRATH of God is *REVEALED* from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness"

And still JD, they don't come to the right choice that you and your brother Arminians advocate, they can make?

Ro 9:22 "WHAT IF GOD, willing to shew HIS WRATH, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of WRATH fitted to destruction"

"What if?" JD?

God Loves All Sinners - (Except the Reprobate) wrote:
Unfortunately Pettigrew you place yourself in the most unfortunate situation if you are going to use John 15:5 to prove that man does not have a free will.
Have you considered who Jesus is talking to? He is talking to his disciples.

God wrote the Bible for ALL who are privileged to read it. Also only some of those will be Elect "BY" God unto salvation. These will "KNOW" the Truth the others will inhabit hell. The difference is in the "fruit" of the individual.

"...her appearance at Saddleback Church with pastor and "The Purpose Driven Life" author Rick Warren apparently didn't hurt."

Wow!! I guess Ricky is having a big influence on you guys across the pond.

Abigail wrote:
God's ways are past finding out. He is sovereign—didn't you hear? He designs His own plans and no one can annul them.

God is Sovereign, and omnipotent and omniscient. Well at least the Reformed God is.

Now why does this *omniscient* God require another 1000 years to make His mind up about who gets into heaven or not?

Surely He is taking us through that process now!

And I thought HE promised "eternal" life, - NOT a measley 1000 years.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have ETERNAL life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have EVERLASTING life.

Abigail wrote:
I don't get the connection, Seaton! Your texts have no correlation to the subject discussed.

The first is from faith.

The second is personal human conviction.

The first is saving knowledge.

The second is NOT from the divine input of the Holy Spirit.

Many people consider themselves as part of the Body of Christ, - Because they attend a "church" eg the RCC, JW....

Michael Hranek wrote:
You might want to humbly and prayerfully read Revelation once again as it doesn't take a rocket scientist of a theologian to see the beast and false prophet are before the millenium in the Book of Revelation.

Abigail wrote:
Whether you are Calvinist or not, I do not know. But if you are, you are contradicting your doctrines because Calvinists say that those dead in trespasses and sins cannot know God or call upon Him because they are spiritually walking dead men. They have eyes and cannot see and ears and cannot hear.
How could they possibly know the way of righteousness and then forsake it

Then there is the Parable of the sower? Not forgetting the RCC and so on?