Elder in CoS wrote: I'm an Elder in a kirk where our minister voted for this disgusting thing. He has brought such shame to our church and the CoS is really in serious trouble. Can all Christians pray for us that the Church be rescued from Satan and his followers?
The problem in the Kirk is the same as that of the C of E - the Satanic religion of Liberalism. (Rom 1:18-32 refers) This is the religion which destroys Bible believing churches and as in society it is anarchy from GOD's authority and all authority. Look at the Government, Judiciary, education - all our institutions are being destroyed by the evil Liberal disease. Not to mention the institution of marriage, where normal people bring up their kids. Even the normal role of women wife, mother and help meet (Gen 2:18 and 3:16).
The disruption of 1843, the Reformation of 16th century and the pharisees in Jesus time all saw moves ordained by God to reject the erroneous teachings of church and people.
As an elder you are part of the Kirk witness which is no longer a Bible believing or obeying organisation.
"The concern about prisons incubating jihadists has been heightened in the debate over releasing Guantanamo terror suspects to facilities across the U.S. FBI Director Robert Mueller has called America's prisons "fertile ground for extremists.""
Aah dont worry fellas that nice Mr. Obama has it all in hand, liberal hands! He will probably invite all these extremists to join the Democrat Party and that will solve everything. They will vote for him and he will bring America into the 14th century - to be exact 1430AH.
Candle Lit wrote: The hand does not say, "okay, let's steal something." The legs do not say, "Let's walk into this evil place."
You still don't get it do you Candle.
Bible according to Candle lit... Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the FLESH, ((or Candles way = "sinful spirit controlled flesh, which is sinless)) God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, ((Candles correction = sinful spirit controlled flesh, since the flesh is sinless)) and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: ((Candle correction = There is no sin in the flesh - blame the spirit)) 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the ((CL/correct = "sinful spirit controlled)) flesh, but after the Spirit. ((Or we could say = "not after the spirit but after the Spirit??)) 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; ((Or they that are after the spirit do mind the things of the spirit??)) [followed by] - but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Candle lit your religion/doctrine/theology whatever has a few problems with terminology.
Candle Lit wrote: 1] Sin comes from within, and is carried out in the body.
2] It is the spirit within man that comes up with all kinds of evil.
1] Within what? The body - thats flesh. You cannot split the body up into parts where some bits are unaffected by sin. Flesh in Scripture describes all the working parts of man, whether body or soul. They are interconnected and one does not exist on earth without the other.
2] When do you suggest that the "flesh" bits become affected by this spirit of sin? - At birth? 3rd grade? every tuesday? Please Candle think this through!
How can you separate the body and soul in regard to cause and effect of sin?
Even when they become indwelt by the Spirit the mortal remains a sinner. Where in Scripture do you find that some parts of the body are NOT under the dominion of sin?
Read Rom 6:13 to 20 and note that the statement is that the WHOLE person is affected. Righteouness makes a difference but that does not prevent us from still sinning. We are never perfect ie sinless in this life.
"I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded YOUR MEMBERS servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity"
Candle Lit wrote: Sin comes from within, and is carried out in the body. Skin, muscles, tendons, bones, brain matter, ears, eyes, mouth do not sin in and of themselves, separate from the spirit
Sorry but I can't accept the idea that part of the human existance is an "innocent" bystander where sin is involved. It is the physical body which dies. Death is a sin! Whereas the spirit is eternal.
"Flesh. Certain obvious meanings literal and figurative, are expressed throughout the Bible by the word "FLESH." The words se'er and basar in the OT and sarx in the NT describe the vehicle and circumstance of man's physical life in this world. Thus in Phil 1:22-24 Paul contrasts abiding "in the flesh" with departing to be "with Christ.""
"The NT view of the FLESH as the central and dynamic principle of fallen humanity."
"There can be no salvation which is not a salvation of flesh" Note Ezek 36:26. Here he implies what Paul states that the FLESH has become perverted and that GOD plans for humanity that which we have learned to call the "resurrection of the body." The NT doctrine of the FLESH is chiefly if not exclusively Pauline. The FLESH is a dynamic principle of sinfulness Gal 5:17,24, Jude 23. Rom 8:5,7. - "the mind of the flesh."" J A Motyer
As most Greeks, the Stoics believed that a human being had a soul. For the Stoics, the soul was corporeal, and was diffused throughout the body. (The individual soul was actually a part of the world-soul.) Diogenes says, "And the soul is a nature capable of perception. And they regard it as a breath of life, congenital with us; from which they infer that it is a body and secondly that it survives death" (Lives, 156). The soul is that which comes into contact with objects outside the perceiver by means of the five senses, which are called parts [or better "functions"] of the soul. The perception of an object by the soul through one of the five senses the Stoics called "presentation" (phantasia). Diogenes explains, "A presentation is an imprint on the soul; the name having been appropriately borrowed from the imprint made by the seal upon the wax" (Lives, 7.45). The soul is like a wax tablet and the object perceived is like a seal that impresses a copy of itself into the wax. (Chrysippus warns, however, that one should not think that literally an object impresses itself upon the soul"
If you want further info.... http://www.abu.nb.ca/Courses/GrPhil/Stoic.htm
Candle Lit wrote: Now, would you define "flesh" for me?
Stoic - Wrong title! Suggest you find it on line and read what they believe.
FLESH Read the BIBLE! All I have done so far is quote relevant verses of Scripture. Don't you believe them?
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. =FLESH all that is mortal and depraved in the sinner. Hard copy as well as soft ware. NB "lust" is *IN* the flesh.
17 For the FLESH LUSTETH against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are CONTRARY the one to the other: SO THAT YOU CANNOT DO the things that ye would. =FLESH clearly we see a powerful struggle within indicated by this verse. Do not underestimate SIN its home is the FLESH the body mind and soul of the mortal. SIN is both cause and effect IN the flesh. SIN affects ALL of the mortal.
SIN does NOT disappear when the Holy Spirit indwells the believer. (See verse quoted) If sin did go or was nullified then the sinner would be perfect. (Being then totally controlled by the Spirit) BUT The sinner is totally depraved. The Holy Spirit's struggle (Contrary to) is and remains with the FLESH. If you try to sanitize any part of the sinner then the sin of vanity will corrupt.
Candle Lit wrote: Read your own post! The "flesh," as in "earthen vessel", is NOT the problem with man! Flesh defined in Scripture is about a "heart of flesh." You sound like a STOIC. When we have the "HOLY SPIRIT" - we are new vessels. OOS
Simple answer for you candle
Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
The vessel is full of abhorent iniquity until it dies. Death itself proves that.
NOTE THAT THIS... 17 "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." = CAN ONLY happen when the Spirit is indwelt.
Your Arminian leanings are trying yet again to make a greater case for the mortal. SIN is an evil POWER in the human condition BE WARNED about its presense and its effects.
John UK wrote: Now as to your strange beliefs, was there not a heretical cult which propounded these views that flesh was sinful/evil and spirit was pure?
Re. Flesh... Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
= Seems pretty clear John.
Or there is Jude 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
And there is Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death"
"Pope Benedict XVI began his first trip to the Middle East on Friday, expressing his "deep respect" for Islam"
PB being PC. However He has just insulted Christ as the Son of God and the ONLY means of salvation.
GOD wrote.... Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood."
The TRUE Christian proclaims.... 2Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
Candle Lit wrote: there is a treasure shining brightly in the vessel of clay - that of the Holy Spirit! If you fail to see that, you are missing that which should cause you to be AMAZED! Don't miss the big picture!
Yes I see the Holy Spirit indwelling! All too glaringly - in comparison to the lump of sin-filled clay that I would gladly give up.
The presense of the Holy Spirit is what reveals and teaches me the foul, wretched and unworthy nature of the flesh, thus providing perception I would otherwise not have.
Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord"
1Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit *AGAINST* the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts"
And 1John 1:18... sin within... = yeuch! Totally Depraved!
John UK wrote: Bro, if you check my original post, you will see that when I talk about testimony, it is testimony about the Lord Jesus, how wonderful he is, what he has done for me, how he hears prayer, washes in his blood, holds my hand, leads and guides by his Spirit, and so on.
John What you mean is the Holy Spirit working in you as an instument of God's mercy.
So the faith sharing, evangel work and Bible doctrine is the wisdom of God in the power of the Holy Spirit.
ALL ALL ALL the glory to GOD alone. amen!
The clay vessel is nothing worthy of speaking about.
"Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but DUNG, that I may win Christ, Phil 3:8 Amen!
charles wrote: God is composed of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and if God is present at Mt Sinai Then all three are. Jesus AND the HS AND the father was present.
Actually they were/are in 'harmony' - not all present otherwise Moses would have recorded it. He would not lie nor would the Lord.
You could argue that Moses "required" the Holy Spirit to receive the truth of this momentous event. But then there is; 2Tim 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration *OF GOD,* and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
And like Jesus the Holy Spirit would give ALL the glory to God the Father especially when writing the Word of God!
John UK wrote: Quite correct! Just making sure you live up to your infamous moniker, bro. Good for you. Now here's another tester for you: why are there no carrots or turnips found in the Bible anywhere? Have they changed their names or what?
Have a read of this one John, perhaps it may cheer you up on vegietheology.....
[URL=http://www.plantanswers.com/bible.htm]]]Vegetables in the Bible[/URL]
John UK wrote: Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers. And the DAUGHTER of ZION is left as a COTTAGE in a VINEYARD, as a LODGE in a GARDEN of CUCUMBERS, as a besieged city. Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah. Isaiah 1:7-9 KJV Amazing how the remnant are found amongst the grapes and cucumbers, eh? Anyhow, this isn't getting the work done, so tarra everyone, and see ya later.
The first chapter of Isaiah is certainly NOT about the Remnant. It is about the quote "Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward." V4.
Considering the "Daughter of Zion" - ie Jerusalem is reduced to a cottage/lodge size - this is NOT good news for them. This in effect predicts their destruction. The first chapters of Isaiah are prophecies of condemnation.
John UK wrote: If a man does NOT RESPOND in FAITH when he hears the gospel, HE WILL NOT BE SAVED. And if a man does NOT REPENT when he hears the gospel, HE WILL NOT BE SAVED. It's that simple. Try looking at it from mans' angle once in a while, lest you become a follower of HYPERMAN!! And you wouldn't want that, surely? And notice I didn't mention election in the above, nor the REASON why a man believes or repents. That is a separate issue.
John if you and Rudi want to do it by the RC-Arminian method then I can only leave you to your OWN devices.
BUT Faith is the GIFT of God wrought in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Eph 2:8.
Nothing to do with the human faculties of natural sinners.
Rudi wrote: Wherein do you think does God receive greater Glory, by giving us the faith to believe in Him (like programing a robot) or by us trusting in Him because we are blown away by His Love revealed at Calvary ! You see faith is not a work , like many would have you believe ! It is our response to God's work
When faith becomes "OUR RESPONSE" as Rudi would have us believe. THEN Salvation rests on a mortals effort or "work" as it has always been known.
That is the same old papist theory of **salvation by works**
If you DIY without divine initiation unto salvation then obviously it **DEPENDS** on you the dead sinner, the enemy of God doing something.
Which BTW does not work!!!
Exclude God if you want Rudi, but the Bible way is that GOD does the election unto salvation without sinners help.
44 "NO MAN can come to me, EXCEPT the Father which hath sent me DRAW him: and I will raise him up at the last day."