John UK wrote:
Let me prove to you biblically that the disciples were born again before Pentecost.

However "regeneration" (born again) did not commence until the Holy Spirit came down in power as presented in Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

Previous to this event - nobody on earth was "born again" (born of the Spirit)(John 3:6) as we know it today.

John UK wrote:
(1) You can read all about it in Acts 2. This is called the Pentecostal experience for short.

(2) Now my question is concerning whether or not the 120 disciples were regenerate or not, when they were praying (wow!) in an upper room at Pentecost.

(3) You see, it would be rather a sore point with you if they were out preaching and healing the sick while in an unregenerate state

(2) 120 people ALL in the upper room????
Mk 14:16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. 17 And in the evening he cometh with the TWELVE. 18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said,..."

John UK wrote:
(1) the Pentecostal experience in the upper room

(2) And what were these disciples, yes disciples of Jesus, called by him and twelve of them called to be apostles, commissioned by Jesus to go out preaching and teaching and healing the sick and casting out devils, doing in the upper room?

(3)Were they in their "natural man" or were they not?"

(2) They were having tea with Jesus.
EG:: Mark 14:18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me." Eating supper is not a quote Pentecostal experience.

(3) Still in there natural estate.

Mike wrote:
At what point in the "process of salvation" does the one who has been born again of the Spirit become saved?

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
_____________

Lurker wrote:
Presby won't give you a straight answer

John UK wrote:
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
John 1:33 KJV
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Acts 1:5 KJV
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea,

Three thousand souls converted in one short sermon? Where did all that power come from? "Ye shall receive power..."
The disciples were transformed when they were BAPTISED WITH THE SPIRIT

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

RP wrote:
Baptism of the Holy Spirit

"Notice the crucial difference in the orders of regeneration and faith. While the Reformed position believes spiritual life is a prerequisite for the existence of the other aspects of salvation, the Arminians believe that fallen, natural man retains the moral capacity to receive or reject the gospel of his own power. Even with the help of grace he still must find it within himself to believe or reject Christ. This has broad implications and raises questions like why does one man believe and not another? You might also notice that, according to Arminians, election is dependent on faith, not the other way around. This is no small matter ...understanding the biblical order, while keeping in mind its unitary process, is crucial and has a profound impact on how one views God, the gospel, and the Bible as a whole."[URL=http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Ordo-Salutis/]]]Monergism[/URL]

RP wrote:
from Spencer's
book and then have you tell me if you do or do not agree. "The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not to be confused with Regeneration. Although both take place almost instantaneously, and involve only the elect, still they are not identical. Regeneration is the act of God whereby he "quickens" (brings to life) a dead human spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the act of God which unites a regenerated believer with the true Church (called the body of Christ) Therefore Paul says: "By one Spirit we are all baptized into one Body." 1 Cor.12:13.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Thus Regeneration - viz "born again" - Is to be born of the Spirit.

Regeneration -(in the Holy Spirit)- begins the process of salvation of the Elect. Part of the outcome of this is conversion namely faith plus repentance. Justification and the process of sanctification follows. As per Romans 8:29,30.

RP wrote:
to understand

WCF
14/1 The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls,(a) is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,(b)
(b) Eph 1:17-19; 2:8; 2 Cor 4:13.

Repentance is produced by faith which is wrought by the Holy Spirit.

John UK wrote:
The Spirit works a work in the poor sinner's heart - WITHOUT INDWELLING HIM! This mighty work, call it what you will, quickening, regeneration,

But the Spirit does NOT indwell until JUSTIFICATION occurs.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, THEM HE ALSO JUSTIFIED: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

John UK wrote:
You must either accept that the "gift of the Holy Ghost" is regeneration, occurring after repentance, OR
You must accept that "the gift of the Holy Ghost" is NOT regeneration, and it DOES occur after repentance.
Which is it?

Or.
Confirm your allegiance to the Vatican and the Arminian works based religions.

SermonAudio sermon by C.H.Spurgeon - [URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1026071631350]]]Faith and Repentance Inseparable[/URL]

Thus man cannot - cannot repent because repentance is a saving Grace wrought by the Holy Spirit. Repentance is provided by God in (1) Knowledge and comprehension of sin, and (2) the grace of repentance. Otherwise how can the sinner blinded by Satan, be convicted of sin? 2Cor 7:10, Acts 11:18. See also 1Cor 2:14.

How God does these things is by grace, and by the Holy Spirit. John 3:16, John 6:44,65. Until he is born of the Spirit man is under the DOMINION of sin (Rom 6:14) and it is heretical deceit to underestimate the power of sin over man. John 3:20.

There is NO OTHER MEANS by which man is enabled in a spiritual way to overcome the flesh - see Gal 5:17.

These recent posts by the Roman Arminians on here seek to destroy the harmony and fellowship of the Trinity especially the work of the Holy Spirit. This is blasphemous heresy, just as the Canons of Dordt point out.

It is plain old satanic deceit, lies and counterfeit religion to suggest that God acts INDEPENDENTLY of the Holy Spirit to provide man with another method of spiritual decision or choice. Nothing in Scripture teaches
this heretical deception.

Many have followed this pernicious way already, leaving the Bible and forsaking God, the Crucified Christ and the Holy Spirit and His work in the heart of the elect. Repentance is a work of Grace not of dead sinners. How sad that some around here do not know this Bible teaching.

Lurker wrote:
Not once has Presby faced the glaring contradiction between the WCF's teaching on when one is indwelt by the HS and the several texts of scripture which clearly teach otherwise

The sinner in his natural estate cannot and will not confess to his sin NOR REPENT! He cannot! Fact!

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Lurker. Your posts stating that the sinner can repent prior to the indwelling of the Spirit are therefore heresy and unBiblical. This is salvation by works a Roman Catholic fallacy.

John UK wrote:
A sinner is DEAD spiritually, and cannot, nor desires to, prepare himself for salvation, nor can he believe, nor can he repent

Lurker wrote:
Ever consider the biblical teaching that faith toward God **IS REPENTANCE*

John UK wrote:
You post up any quote from me which is "obviously" Roman Arminian method of salvation

Your post 11/10/11 5:05 PM
Quote;
"you imagine God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to an ungodly sinner before he has even expressed a desire to repent of his sins. Now biblically this is incorrect" unquote.

Here John you are implying that the sinner, dead in his sins, unable to spiritually discern, not born again of the Spirit, - can REPENT - therefore is under the conviction of sins BY HIS OWN VOLITION???

That is pure unadulterated Roman Catholic Arminian salvation by human effort. In fact it is hyper-Wesleyan!!

Lurker wrote:
dumb question

Mike wrote:
The Bible tells us it precedes

John UK wrote:
where does "quickening" come into the scheme of things? As in "And you hath he quickened, which were dead..."

Lurker wrote:
indwelling of the spirit comes after repentance and faith

Mike wrote:
If one is regenerated, to what end would you have him trust in Christ?

Well Well Well
Arminianism, Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism the old works based religion of the Roman Catholics is alive and well and working right here on the site. Sadly!

As for our resident hyper-Wesleyan John, I do hope you will continue to tell the truth that you are in fact not a Calvinist of any description.

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

John UK wrote:
Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV
note, AFTER.....AFTER.....Got it?

Eph 1:13 "In whom ye also trusted," - Question can the unregenerate "trust" in Christ?

"after that ye heard the word of truth," - Question can the unregenerate "hear" the truth?

"the gospel of your salvation:" - Question Is the Gospel the means of salvation for the unregenerate?

"in whom also after that ye believed," - Question Is Paul addressing the unregenerate? Is the unregenerate "born again" of the Spirit?

"ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" - Question are the unregenerate "sealed" - Or is it the "regenerate" who are "sealed."?
It is still NOT A WORK OF HUMAN FACULTY on its own.