Just been browsing through the posts below and reading Abigail and "spiritual" I can see and confirm why the Synod of Dordt condemned the Arminians as HERETICS, their progeny today are just as blind to the Truth as ever.
But as Paul declared 1Cor 11:19 "For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you"
So we must put up with these hell bound heretics in the same mold as the papists. "Salvation by works" and your "own" righteousness, together with "we have overcome sin by our own volition," is a recipe for disaster, but sadly it appears from their posts that this is precisely what they choose to believe.
May the Lord in His mercy bring them into the Truth and set them free from the bondage of sin.
John 1:5 "And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."
John 8:32 "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
"Rowan Williams, had complained that â€śearly modern religion contributed to the idea that the fate of nature is for it to be bossed around by a detached sovereign will, whether divine or human.â€ť"
The Anglicans wouldn't know trust in God, from the faith they have in their local soccer team to win.
Liberalism has destroyed any real faith and Biblical understanding amongst them.
IF you are about the work of God HE will take care of your environment.
Psalm 107.33 He turneth rivers into a wilderness, and the watersprings into dry ground; 34 A fruitful land into barrenness, for the wickedness of them that dwell therein.
35 He turneth the wilderness into a standing water, and dry ground into watersprings. 36 And there he maketh the hungry to dwell, that they may prepare a city for habitation; 37 And sow the fields, and plant vineyards, which may yield fruits of increase. 38 He blesseth them also, so that they are multiplied greatly; and suffereth not their cattle to decrease.
Lurker It would seem from the "spiritual" posts below that you are debating with a "legalist"
"Legalism is the notion that a sinner can, by his own efforts, or by the power of the Holy Spirit in his life, do some work to obtain or retain his salvation. Some legalists think man has free will and can perform good works if he just sets his mind to it, thereby obtaining the favor of God. This type of legalist thinks that a sinner can believe the Gospel on his own steam. Other legalists think that a sinner does not have free will, that any good he does is done by the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him, and it is these good deeds done by the power of the Holy Spirit that obtain or help obtain, retain or help retain, his salvation. Both types of legalists, but especially the latter, may acknowledge that Christ's work of obedience is necessary for salvation, but both deny that Christ's work is sufficient for salvation. Both types of legalists assert that to Christ's work must be added the works of the sinner, done either under his own steam, or by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is what makes them legalists: their shared belief in the incompleteness or insufficiency of the work of Christ outside of them. They may differ on what constitutes good works"(J Robbins)
Spiritual wrote: So no sinner can possibly be justified on the merits of Christ's righteousness. ..........And because they are not sinners God will consider their works of the Spirit and reckon them righteous and give them eternal life.
I have observed a great deal of heresy upon this site from time to time. But the person who dares to even suggest that they are quote, "spiritual" above - Then writes the evil papist dogma of salvation by sinners own effort, has to take the biscuit. Clearly this is not a Christian and requires our pity. May God save him someday. _______________________________________
JD I'm sorry that you are in "agreement" with our cultish minded friend above in this instance.
As far as the subject of justification, by Paul in Romans, he is not in disagreement with any other part of Scripture.
NO mortal can ever nor will ever come before God as justified on their own human merits.
The Elect can and will only ever be justified before God **IN CHRIST** - There is NO other way. NO HUMAN WAY!
Ro 3.24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption THAT IS IN Christ Jesus" Plus Jer 23:6; Rom 3:22, 24-25, 27-28; 4:5-8; 5:17-19; 1 Cor 1:30-31; 2 Cor 5:19, 21; Eph 1:7; Titus 3:5, 7. Also see Isa 53.4-6
JD wrote: Walt, If the Scriptures ever, in a single instance, said that faith is the gift of God, I would be on this forum defending it.
Oh Walt, what a terrible thing to say, that faith is the gift of God. Why if it is how on earth could poor old JD, Yamil, Michael, Abigail etc, work their own salvation and their way to heaven without any divine assistance?
This is the reason why JD is re-negotiating the doctrine of "imputed righteousness" below.
Whereby the Bible teaches that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us by God, because, "there is none righteous no not one" - This believe it or not includes JD and Yamil - However this does tend to exclude the Arminian teaching of God, not being entirely in sovereign charge of His creation, and sin not really as bad as total depravity.
JD Eph 2.8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
1Pet 1.4/5... reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Ro 3.23 For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
Wayne M. wrote: Seaton, That quote sounds like salvation by works. You quoted R. Brimsmead but never said whether you agreed or disagreed with it and why.
Wayne If I ever post any acceptance of the Papist heresy of salvation by any human effort(works) - You have my permission to shoot me.
What Brimsmead is doing at that section of his article is comparing the error of the Arminian, with Biblical doctrine.
"What is justification?" "Justification is an act of God's free grace, wherein He pardoneth all our sins, and accepteth us as righteous in His sight, only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and received by faith alone." The Westminster Shorter Catechism, Question and Answer 33
"Arminian theology (which was the soil from which sprang the holiness-Pentecostal movement) greatly weakens the doctrine of justification by faith. It thinks of justification only in terms of forgiveness of past sins by virtue of Christ's death. It fails to see that justification is also the imputation of Christ's life of perfect obedience to the law â€” an obedience which gives to the believer a full and free title to eternal life (Rom. 4:5-7; 5:10, 18, 19). Consequently, final salvation is thought to depend largely on the active obedience of the believer in his life of sanctification." (R. Brinsmead; Present Truth Mag)
1. A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.
2. often Fundamentalism An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture. Adherence to the theology of this movement."
The problem is in the definition today.
it's a bit like many of the other religious terms which have been misconstrued over the years. Eg. "evangelical"
Whereas I would call myself "evangelical" in it's true sense, rather than "fundamentalist" and what it has become.
However even evangelical has been "stolen" by the heretics.
Considering some of the debates we have held on here with someone who identifies with "fundamentlist" - I think I would run a mile from their version of the title.
JD wrote: Therefore, it was not belief in the gospel of Christ that brought justification to these men. It is belief in the gospel that brings justification to his church.
JD Is this more of your conviction on salvation by works?
Jn 1.12 "But as many as received him, to them *GAVE HE POWER* to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"
Q70. What is justification?
A. Justification is an ACT of God's free grace unto sinners [x], in which HE pardoneth all their sins, accepteth and accounteth their persons righteous IN HIS SIGHT [y]; NOT(R)NOT for any thing wrought in them, or done by them [z], but ONLY FOR the perfect obedience and full satisfaction of Christ, by God IMPUTED to them [a], and received by faith alone [b].
X - Ro 3.22,24-25, 4.5. Y - 2Cor 5.19,21, Ro 3.27-28. Z - Titus 3.5,7, Eph 1.7. A - Ro 5.17-19, 4.6-8. B - Acts 10.43, Gal 2.16, Phil 3.9.
Spiritual wrote: While me and Cheryl are on agreement in many things, she is aware that I differ strongly with her as to how our iniquitous government is to be dealt with. While everything she says concerning the American Government is factually accurate (I have studied these matters myself),
Oh well at least from this statement we can see that all heretics are on the same BUS!!!
2Thes 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong DELUSION, that they should believe a lie:
2Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto *FABLES*.
Yep there's a lot of fables around these days on the site.
"An extremist Islamist group, which remains legal despite Government promises to ban it, has urged Muslim students at British universities to fight Allied troops in Iraq."
Nuh this can't be true???
Our illustrious Prime Minister, "good old Gordon Brown" (whose daddy was a church minister therefore he must be right) told everybody that we are not to use the term "Muslim," when speaking in the context of terrorism.
Now all the Brits believe him don't we.
Quote In England, the new prime minister, Gordon Brown, told his Cabinet ministers not to use the word "Muslim" when referring to the recent attempted terrorist attacks in his country. Incidentally, this is the same Britain where "niceness" extends to not flying the national flag at the country's prisons or at Heathrow Airport because that flag contains the Cross of St. George, the banner under which the Christians fought in the Crusades. Apparently, they don't want to offend Muslims who fly or those doing time." (WND)
"THE covenant of life is not preached equally to all, and among those to whom it is preached, does not always meet with the same reception. This diversity displays the unsearchable depth of the divine judgment, and is without doubt subordinate to God's purpose of eternal election. But if it is plainly owing to the mere pleasure of God that salvation is spontaneously offered to some, while others have no access to it, great and difficult questions immediately arise, questions which are inexplicable, when just views are not entertained concerning election and predestination. To many this seems a perplexing subject, because they deem it most incongruous that of the great body of mankind some should be predestinated to salvation, and others to destruction. We may add, that in the very obscurity which deters them, we may see not only the utility of this doctrine, but also its most pleasant fruits. We shall never feel persuaded as we ought that our salvation flows from the free mercy of God as its fountain, until we are made acquainted with his eternal election, the grace of God being illustrated by the contrast--viz. that he does not adopt all promiscuously to the hope of salvation, but gives to some what he denies to others"
Contender wrote: My answer is no because on a historical account the Solemn League and Covenant was made for more than just pure religious purposes, it was also very political and meant to impose Scottish Presbyterianism upon English protestants and citizens in order to form a military pact against the Royalists and Charles I in the first British civil war, although not directly stated in the covenant it was intended by the Covenanters. True religion is not imposed on anyone,
True that political infighting was happening at the same time as the Covenanters were fighting for reform.
But this was the struggle of Papists versus Covenanters, and papists versus Puritans(Cromwell) in England.
This was a struggle by the Papists to "impose" their heretical dogmas upon the British people.
Thus was the overflow of the Reformation, viz The Papist antichrist church against the True Protestant Church.
Is it a surprise that it took this course and toll amongst a people, who fought and died for their Biblical Church's existance.
The 1746 Culloden battle was religious too, - Bonnie Prince Charlie being a Papist.
Ultimately God and His Protesatant Church won against the Papal antichrist.
Walt wrote: JD even admits it does not have to be faith in Jesus Christ that saves, because he argues that Abraham and others after him never even knew Christ, so it is just faith alone that saves, and not faith in Jesus Christ.
Yes Walt, I can see your whole point but alas the works based theorists do not.
Yamil quoted back to you yesterday "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Ro 5.1)
But he seems to have missed the criterion in the verse, - "THROUGH our Lord Jesus Christ" Next verse continues... "**BY WHOM ALSO WE HAVE ACCESS** by faith into this grace wherein we stand..."
The works based religion, like popery, always seems to require to raise the input of the sinner, whilst correspondingly lower the Sovereignty of God.
We are not "justified by faith" We are "justified by faith IN Christ" HIS righteousness not ours - or JD's or even Yamil's.