is not the same as what you said:

"Hebrews ... talks specifically about Christ Jesus who has perfected ONCE forever them that he is sanctifying."

You have twisted and wrested the scripture to make it say something completely opposite from what it says.

You are a fraud just like JD, use the same kind of dirty tricks, blow a lot of smoke just like he does, and don't admit you are wrong when you are wrong, just like he does.

Face it. You HAVE NO SCRIPTURE to back up your statement. You are wrong, wrong, wrong. You are not perfected at the instant you believe. Jesus perfects forever "those who are sanctified," not some snow covered dung piece of jello who wallows and prides themself in their fatalistic do-nothingism, a sin which Jesus said would send a person to Hell, but which you have managed to twist into a virtue.

I get a sense of him through his postings that tells me he has a good heart, that he's sincere, and that he has a relationship with God. I think he may actually be saved, but I don't know. Maybe he's not saved and maybe he said something that tells you definitely he isn't.

He does tend to put himself on a pedestal, but a lot of new Christians do that, including yourself.

You think being saved is believing in OSAS? What has he said that makes you think he definitely is not saved?

Chapter and verse?

I read that Jesus only had to die once, that his sacrifice was perfect for all time, (not that we are perfect for all time), versus the OT sacrifices that had to be made repeatedly.

You parrot dry doctrine as a litmus test for who is saved and who not. On Judgment Day, do you suppose Jesus is going to give us a doctrine quiz off a whiteboard? Do we have SAT scores for Heaven?

God is just the Great Bean-Counter up above, making sure no sins are overlooked, past or future, when someone says the sinners prayer?

You think the Words in Red are optional? Maybe Jesus didn't have a white board and that's why he said we must ABIDE in the vine? Or Jesus through Paul was wrong when he said to CRUCIFY the Old Man, to RECKON ourselves dead to sin and alive to God, to WALK in the Spirit, to BE an overcomer? that this is optional, not required?

When people ask "what must I do to be saved?" -- do you tell them all this stuff? This is what you call "the gospel?" Who could understand it, let alone believe it? Even OSAS Baptists don't believe what you say you have to believe in order to be saved.

I double, triple-dare you step outside the lemming parade long enough to forget what men have taught you and to just read the book of Hebrews in the King James Bible with an open heart and mind, without skipping over verses, without twisting them to make them fit what you have been told by others is true and want to believe is true.

I double, triple-dare you to read the Words in Red in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John -- also Acts.

Read Revelation, about what it says about being an overcomer.

Hop is open to truth, hasn't figured it all out yet, but is open. Yes, he does get lost in the weeds.

But he's not close-minded, like the first example in the Parable of the Sower, and Satan hasn't succeeded in stealing away the entire Word from him.

The five foolish virgins betrothed to the bridegroom rejected the pure gospel once received, embraced a lie, and went to Hell dry as a bone.

Hop is searching, a lover of the truth, understands we are to love our neighbor as ourselves and love God with all our heart, soul and mind. He's not a bag of dead men's bones, snow covered dung, proud to be a pile of jello not capable of overcoming anything. He knows there's more to being a Christian than dry doctrine that equals out to antinomianism.

Gag, choke.

Talk is cheap. Prove it. Tell us which books of the Bible are for Christians and which are not. Tell us which books are in code and which mean what they say.

Tell us which books we can ignore because of "context, context, context."

I have a friend who never preaches at all, but his witness is powerful, because he is walking in the spirit. Because he does this, God turns him into a kind of superman, same way he did David with Golieth. My friend is tireless, full of courage, and doesn't shrink back at anything that's set before him, but charges in with faith, just like David did when he confronted the giant. God rewards his faith every single time. It is amazing to watch this man.

Jesus did say, "Greater works than these will you do." Anybody who steps out in faith to walk in the Spirit will experience this, being transformed from being a "nobody special" to doing great works.

People scorn the words of Jesus in the four gospels, as though these are some kind of aprocraphal, extra-Biblical books, instead of the four key books of the entire Bible, the books we call the "Gospels."

The four Gospels, the teachings of Jesus when he walked this earth among us, should be studied and the warnings listened to, rather than ignored and explained away as I see many doing on this forum.

Jesus taught, commanded that we abide in Him. This is a choice we make, not an "automatic" as you say. Jesus said that if we do not abide, that we will wither on the vine and be broken off.

Many other teachings say the same. So to say there is nothing that says Christians can lose their salvation is just plain false.

What in God's name is that supposed to mean!

This is a Christian forum. If people can't quote scripture here, where can we?

Verse launching? What "simple declarative statement" would define THIS terrible thing.

We make our arguments here and base it on scripture, hopefully. Then we may lay down scripture as proof of what we've said.

If somebody disagrees with the interpretation of any scripture, so be it.

But verse launching?

Used to be people like JD would put up several posts in a row of nothing but irrelevant and unrelated scripture to put up a smokescreen, to appear knowledgeable and spiritual, to distract from the fact that he'd dug himself into a corner, and try to use lots of random Bible scripture to put distance between the nutty and ill-thought-out heresies put forth.

Our faith is being tried and tested. Yes, it is possible for a saved person to become lost. Once we believe we must walk in the Spirit. If we quench, grieve and insult the Holy Spirit, we will dry up on the vine.

The lazy servant and the backslidden servant DID go to Hell.Jesus taught this.

We have no right to take the words of Jesus when he walked this earth among us and spit on them, avoid or shun them like porn, or say they're hidden code words to the Jews.

It's pure evil to ignore what Jesus taught about Heaven and Hell. Jesus taught to ask and be full of the Holy Spirit, or we'd be full of demons instead.

How evil and foolish to scorn and ignore the words of Jesus, to hate those who refuse to wrest scripture to make it say OSAS and TULIP.

The teachings of OSAS, of fatalism, of a puppetmaster God who expects nothing, comes from Plato, who taught it to Augustine, who taught it to Calvin.

It is possible to be spiritually alive one day and spiritually dead the next. Witness Adam and Eve, the angels who left their first estate, also Solomon, Saul, Demas, the foolish widows, the five foolish virgins, the first three examples of the Parable of the Sower.

I picture the ones Jesus said he "never knew" as like those in the first example of the parable, those who heard and believed the Word only briefly, never walked with God, and almost immediately went whoring after strange gods when Satan whispered lies (heresies) in their ear. These love not the truth, and love and make a lie instead.

Eternal life is what one receives who has run the race successfully, not forsaken the Lord, and kept his eyes on the prize, whose faith was tried and tested and who endured to the end.

Yes, Jesus says about this group in particular that he "never knew them."

But we read of others, such as in the parable of the Ten Virgins, the first three examples of the Parable of the Sower, the backslidden servant and the lazy servant, also Judas, Solomon, Saul, Demus, the foolish widows, Hymaneus and Alexander, and others, who once knew the Lord but who turned away, who apostatized, who shipwrecked their faith.

But the religious hypocrits Jesus spoke of specifically, who were shocked to find out they were going to Hell, NEVER knew Jesus even for one minute.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he POWER to BECOME the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Bible is a big book, and there's a few pieces to be put together for those who have received a love of the truth, who seek the whole counsel of God.

Put the pieces together, stop focusing in on one piece of the puzzle, thinking you have got it all. Harmonize the scriptures.

When I say "harmonize," that doesn't mean come up with some lame heresy that says it's okay to tunnel vision yourself in to a few verses and explain the others away as for another dispensation, another time, for another people.

These arguments are ludicrous, an insult to God, to the Bible, and show that people aren't reading the whole Bible, don't respect God's Word, think they can pull verses out in isolation and make a religion out of them.

Remember what Jesus said to those religious people on Judgment Day -- I never knew you.

It is revolting and disgusting to see how people isolate scripture, twist it around, to make it say absolute nonsense, make it seem that do-nothingism is a virtue, when Jesus clearly taught that do-nothingism will send a person to HELL.

Oh, you mean like they talk about on those "conspiracy websites" you were ridiculing below? You're much too smart to fall for any of that nonsense, or any of the prophecy in Revelation either, or to give any credibility to that despicable Texe Marrs, even if he has been studying about the New World Order his entire life, has written 45 or 50 books on it (none of them ghostwritten), and defended the King James Bible all that time as well.

Was it Fox News that told you about World Government? Maybe CNN, or MSNBC?

Did you figure it out yourself from the Bible, or maybe you put two and two together when you examined the U.S. dollar bill?

Finally you decide to apologize and withdraw it, because another OSAS person agreed it is the same as calling yourself a whitewashed tomb.

For that matter, who is constantly screaming about Nativity scenes, complains and clamors to get Christmas abolished in the schools, and Easter, even the very words not to be spoken? Who is working to get "hate laws" passed so that Christians can't condemn sin or state who killed Jesus?

Who is working to make the King James Bible against the law? Whose 'holy book' claims Jesus was the son of a whore, and is now buring in Hell? Whose Noahide laws require Christians to be beheaded for "idolatry" -- ie worshipping Jesus?

Not the Muslims. It's the Synagogue of Satan.

Wake up. You've been watching too much Fox News. BTW, Rupert Murdach is Jewish, Chertoff is Mossad, most of the Bush administration is dual-citizen Jew, Hillary is cryptojew and so is GWB. The Antichrist will be the false Jewish messiah, and will rule from the rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem, which the Bible calls in the last days "Sodom and Egypt."

But Wayne H. boasted of being "snow covered dung," and has never retracted his boast.

Many others here might as well claim to be "snow covered dung" because they are fatalists, helplessly waiting for God to come along and waft them around to do good works. If God doesn't do that, that's God's fault, not theirs.

Antinomian fatalists, otherwise known as whitewashed tombs, or worse, haters of those who love God and love their neighbor.