John UK wrote:
Me
But I don't believe heaven is in the sky, or a totally spiritual experience. I believe the new earth will be the dwelling of God with men, and that is what I look forward to.
When I was a young Christian I coloured in my Bible according to topic, and one of those topics was the second coming of Christ and the end of the world. Over the years I formed an opinion concerning the last day, and was satisfied with it. Later on, I discovered that there were different views on the subject, and I found that my belief tallied with what is known as a-millenial. So I am of that ilk, while respecting others who differ.

You are missing out on sweet promises of the LORD relative to His eternal purposes for a new heaven and new earth. How do you dismiss whole books of the O.T. Not one jot or tittle will pass away. They are given so that we may know.

John UK wrote:
Me
Sure, and thanks for your testimony to the wonderful power of God's word. Revelation 21:4 is my favourite verse in all the Bible. And I look forward to seeing the reality of it one day.
I praise Christ for his great love and compassion. To actually dwell where God is, and his Son, and the Holy Ghost, and all the holy angels, and all the saints, for all eternity.
It's enough to make you smile, or leap for joy, eh?

There's just so much more to dwell on than the end of all things as we know them, and the beginning of things that we cannot imagine.

John UK wrote:
As I do not believe in a millennial reign of Christ on earth based in Jerusalem,

Do you not believe the Word of God?

I remember a portion of your testimony included the use of Revelation in your conversion. Did you not read Chapter 21:1-5 ?

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He shall dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be among them.

and He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there shall no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."

And, God used these verses to bring me to Himself, as a part of my testimony.

John UK wrote:
Me
I've just read Zechariah 8 for my early morning treat, and it may be one of those prophecies the Jews count on for endtime restoration,

For me, the language is still old covenant language, therefore cannot refer to a present day reality.

Thank you for your response.

For me to post all the promises to the Jewish people from the major and minor prophets would take considerable time, but I am prepared to do it.

Respectfully, John, the new covenant was better than the old covenant, in that there would no longer be a need for a sacrificial system, but it did not negate the promises of God to a people. God's promises never fail. He cannot lie. His actions are independent of ours. He is trustworthy. His ways are higher than our ways.

"For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, saying, "I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." Hebrews 6:13

What the new covenant did was open the door for the Gentiles to enter in. Thus, it was not exclusive but expansive!

Many things are happening concurrently, in the physical and spiritual realm. We want to simplify things by saying "Christians go to heaven, where we endlessly praise the Lord, while sinners suffer endless torture in hell. But Scripture tells us a whole lot more concerning the new heavens and new earth.

"Thus says the LORD, 'I will return to Zion and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Then Jerusalem will be called the City of Truth, and the mountain of the LORD of hosts will be called the Holy Mountain.'

and I will bring them back, and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem, and they will be My people and I will be their God in truth and righteousness.'

For there will be peace for the seed; the vine will yield its fruit, the land will yield its produce, and the heavens will give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to inherit all these things.

And it will come about that just as you were a curse among the nations, O house of Judah and house of Israel, so I will save you that you may become a blessing. . .

Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'It will yet be that peoples will come, even the inhabitants of many cities; and the inhabitants of one will go to another saying, "Let us go at once to entreat the favor of

"Therefore, wait for Me," declares the LORD, "For the day when I rise up to the prey. Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out on them My indignation, all my burning anger; for all the earth will be devoured by the fire of My zeal.

For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, that all of them may call on the name of the LORD, to serve Him shoulder to shoulder.

From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia My worshipers, My dispersed ones, will bring My offerings.

In that day you will feel no shame because of all your deeds by which you have rebelled against Me; for then I will remove from your midst your proud, exulting ones, and you will never again be haughty on My holy mountain.

But I will leave among you a humble and lowly people, and they will take refuge in the name of the LORD.

The remnant of Israel will do no wrong
and tell no lies, nor will a deceitful tongue be found in their mouths; for they shall feed and lie down with no one to make them tremble.

Shout for joy, O daughter of Zion? Shout in triumph, O Israel! Rejoice and exult with all your heart, O daughter of Jerusalem!

"As in the days when you came out from the land of Egypt, I will show you miracles."

Nations will see and be ashamed of all their might. They will put their hand on their mouth, their ears will be deaf.

They will lick the dust like a serpent, like reptiles of the earth. They will come trembling out of their fortresses; to the LORD our God they will come in dread, and they will be afraid before Thee.

Who is a God like Thee, who pardons iniquity and passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in unchanging love.

He will again have compassion on us; He will tread our iniquities underfoot. Yes, Thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

Thou wilt give truth to Jacob, and unchanging love to Abraham, which Thou didst swear to our forefathers from the days of old."

Chapter 7:15-20

Amos 9:13-15

"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "When the plowman will overtake the reaper and the treader of grapes him who sows seed; when the mountains will drip sweet wine, and all the hills will be dissolved.

"Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, and they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them, they will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, and make gardens and eat their fruit.

"I will also plant them on their land, and they will not again be rooted out from their land which I have given them," says the LORD your God."

____________________

Micah 4:1 "And it will come about in the last days that the mountain of the house of the LORD will be established as the chief of the mountains. It will be raised above the hills, and the peoples will stream to it.

". . .And the heavens and the earth tremble. But the LORD is a refuge for His people and a stronghold to the sons of Israel.

Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, dwelling in Zion My holy mountain. So Jerusalem will be holy, and strangers will pass through it no more.

And it will come about in that day that the mountains will drip with sweet wine, and the hills will flow with milk, and all the brooks of Judah will flow with water; and a spring will go out from the house of the LORD, to water the valley of Shittim.

Egypt will become a waste, and Edom will become a desolate wilderness, because of the violence done to the sons of Judah in whose land they have shed innocent blood.

But Judah will be inhabited forever, and Jerusalem for all generations.

And I will avenge their blood which I have not avenged, for the LORD dwells in Zion."

I'm reading the minor prophets, and, once again I'm overcome by emotion with the love that God has for His people. Hear this:

"Return, O Israel, to the LORD your God, for you have stumbled because of your iniquity." Hosea 14:1

vs. 4 "I will heal their apostasy, I will love them freely, for My anger has turned away from them."

Joel 2:18 "Then the LORD will be zealous for His land, and will have pity of His people."

vs. 19 "And the LORD will answer and say to His people, 'Behold, I am going to send you grain, new wine, and oil, and you will be satisfied in full with them; and I will never again make you a reproach among the nations.'"

3:1,2 "For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations, and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there on behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they have divided up My land."

vs. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

vs 15 The sun and moon grow dark, and the stars lose their brightness.

Banned wrote:
Read Deuteronomy 28, 5-68, 17:14-20. There were plenty of conditions on this land of milk and honey, which is why the Jews never actually enjoyed any milk and honey. God said, if you will do this I will do that. If you don't, then I will do this instead.
Instead of milk and honey the land of Canaan was war, subjection, slavery, bloodshed.

Even so today, there are blessings and curses that follow obedience.

Blindness in part has happened to the Jewish people until the fullness of the Gentiles. Then, the Jews will be grafted in.

Zech 1:16,17 "Therefore, thus says the LORD, 'I will return to Jerusalem with compassion; My house will be built in it,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'and a measuring line will be stretched over Jerusalem."'

Banned wrote:
The Palestinians ARE the victim, and it is wrong to advocate "blame the victim," that they are victims by choice and provoked their victimhood.

Banned wrote:
The promises of Canaan were conditional, same as Heaven is conditional (Deut. 17 and 28) A covenant is a two-way contract.

Not so with a Covenant. It is not dependent on the one receiving, but on the one enacting or giving the promise.
That would be GOD in relationship to Abraham. GOD cannot break His Covenant with Abraham.

Genesis 15:7 "And He said to him, 'I am the LORD who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to possess it.

And he said, 'O LORD God, how may I know that I shall possess it?'

Read vs. 9-17

Then vs. 18 "On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, 'To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates: the Kenite and the Kenizzite and the Kadmonite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Rephaim and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Girgashite and the Jebusite.'"

Banned wrote:
God's covenant with Abraham was with Abraham only.

"And I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an EVERLASTING POSSESSION; and will be their God." Genesis 17:7,8

John UK wrote:
ME

You believe then, that 'a people' you refer to, are in the direct blood relationship with Abraham? It has to be either 'blood relationship' or 'covenant relationship', doesn't it?
But if it is 'covenant relationship',

So, the covenant was with Abraham and his descendants also through a bloodline of people, through whom the Saviour would come. Gentiles who do not have the bloodline of Abraham, have been grafted in - adopted, into the family, through faith in Jesus, the Messiah.

Of course, I know that not every descendant in the bloodline of Abraham will be saved - only those who have believed in the Jesus, the Messiah.

You are beginning to sound like the "REV" Jeremiah Wright in condemning the white man for the black man's woes, in this country.

Those who gain from promoting this victim mentality have selfish reasons.

There is a power behind evil, and tactics and strategies are the same, to a greater or lesser degree.

Even in families, children can use the "poor me, I'm a victim" to gain sympathy.

The Hamas use the "poor me, victim mentality," all the while provoking an Israeli attack so as to gain the sympathy of the world.

The Israeli soldiers are amongst the most mature men and women that I have ever seen and/or interacted with. While visiting Israel and in their presence, I felt completely safe.

OTOH, a trip inside Turkey with their heavily armed military made me feel paranoid.

The Jews are the good guys in this whole situation. They are restrained in their defense of their people, and they even provide medical care to the wounded enemy.

John UK wrote:
Article called 'The Future of Israel re-examined'.
very few Jews at the time of Christ had any of Abraham's blood in them. in the Biblical sense, unless by "True Jews" we mean Christians. There is no covenant, and therefore there is no nation, no "race."
James B Jordan (preterist)
Is he right?

In answer to your question, John - NO, he is WRONG.

Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall.

John UK wrote:
Ha!
If I knew what a Christian Zionist was I wouldn't be asking if there were any Christian Zionists here who know what a Christian Zionist is.

You asked if they knew they were Christian Zionists - not, what a Christian Zionist is.

Lundy wrote:
They are Dispensationalists arn't they?
EG John Walvoord and Hal Linsey et al???

John UK wrote:
Are there any Christian Zionists here who know they are Christian Zionists?