Either a person believes of their own ability or God makes them self aware of the faith He forced them into. Maybe that is a better dichotomy for you?
The point being made with Romans 13:11 was that âwe believedâ and it was okay. Also, in John 9:35-38 the man says âI believeâ. I wanted you to see that there is nothing wrong with saying âI believedâ as it is used in scripture without it being considered a sin. If someone were to ask why I was saved, it is because I believed and God saved me.
Thereâs a lot of people who donât understand John 6:25-71. Maybe you can help! How did you determine that the word âcomeâ shouldnât really mean to move toward something?
âI am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?â ââJohnâŹ â6:51, 61-62âŹ
If Jesus came down from Heaven and ascended back up, how are we going to move toward Him unless we also ascend? Do you think this could be a reference to the Resurrection?
Lurker wrote: "I" ...... I thought so. Even the RCC and most Arminians try to give a little honor to God with their false doctrine of prevenient grace.
In all fairness, there is no other way to state it. It was âIâ who believed, not God for me, otherwise I would of said He believed for me and not for others, which sounds ridiculous when you think about it. Nowhere in scripture does it teach that God must believe somehow for sinners.
âAnd that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.â ââRomansâŹ â13:11
Is it okay to say âweâ believed? That is the plural of âIâ. Was Paul not giving God glory for their salvation?! They were the ones who believed, while God was the one who saved them.
âJesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.â ââJohnâŹ â9:35-38âŹ
Jesus has no problem with people saying, âI believeâ.
Lurker wrote: 1) you apparently see that view supported by Acts 17:26-30.
2) Not wanting to put words in your mouth but may I assume this ability to believe unto justification of life is what most would call reason? Logic?
3) If all mankind receives the ability to believe unto justification of life at birth, what makes you differ from those who reject the gospel?
1) I also quoted Romans 2:15.
2) Is that a reference to Logos?
3) I believed and they didnât. The Bible gives examples of why people reject Him in general and sometimes specifically. However, it doesnât say as much about why people believe except to say it is out of love. It is appreciation and gratitude for what Jesus did for us.
âAnd hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:â ââActsâŹ â17:26-30âŹ
God has placed people where they are so they may seek Him. It is because of Him that we live and have any abilities, including faith. However, we must use that God given ability to obey His command and repent. We only have the ability to do that if we first hear the gospel.
âWhich shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one anotherâ ââRomansâŹ â2:15âŹ
Lurker wrote: Thanks J4J, It wasn't quite the direct answer I was hoping for but I'll work with the text you cited. Faith comes by hearing. Hearing comes by the word (Logos) of God. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word [Logos], and the Word [Logos] was with God, **and the Word [Logos] was God.** So if one is able to hear, that hearing is by God (Logos). And if one has faith, that faith comes by hearing which is by God. I believe we have finally gotten to the bottom of the matter, J4J. That is, unless you can demonstrate that I have not faithfully exegeted your prooftext.
You are right, thatâs why I am okay if people want to say that faith is a gift, even if that is not what Ephesians 2 is saying because ultimately the ability to believe is given us from birth and to whom we believe in is Himself a gift in that God didnât have to send His Son, but He did.
I donât know if English isnât some peopleâs first language or what is going on! The question asked: From whence comes that faith; all of God, all of man or something else? The answer: Faith comes from the preaching of the gospel , because people canât just believe in Jesus is they never heard of Him and that faith is an act of obedience. Obedience means the following of the commandment to believe! Hint: It isnât God who needs to being obedient, the act comes from the sinner who chooses to obey. As I pointed out earlier, God places sinners where they need to be so they may believe and it is ingrained in them that He is, therefore they are without excuse. If anybody has a better answer, by all means speak up!
Decisional regeneration is the idea that people have the ability to regenerate themselves. Where is that idea taught? Nowhere! It is only found in the imagination of reformed teachers. It is like Bigfoot, someone thinks they saw it, maybe there is an blurry video of it somewhere, but the blurry video ends up being a Calvinist in a decisional regeneration monkey suite. In all of my years, I have never seen it myself and donât believe it exist.
âSo then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.â ââRomansâŹ â10:17âŹ
We receive the Holy Spirit by faith and without the Holy Spirit we do not belong to Christ. How can someone be âelectâ and not even belong to Christ?! Jesus is the object of our faith. Faith is the obedient act of repentance from sins and trusting in Jesus for our salvation.
âBut now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:â ââRomansâŹ â16:26âŹ
âAnd we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.â ââActsâŹ â5:32âŹ
âAnd being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;â ââHebrewsâŹ â5:9âŹ
This is a perfect example of what happens. Either knowing the truth or never really believing, they turn to cleverly devised tales which seem to appeal to their flesh. Their exegetical study is superior to others, so they say and they seem to like being part of the exclusive group of âenlightenedâ believers known as the frozen chosen. Everyone else is just to stupid or sinful to see it their way. The truth is TULIP isnât found in scripture and Calvinism isnât taught. They seem to know this as they try to cover up their views by denying the term Calvinism and they have a particular dislike for those who call themselves hyper-Calvinist because those type are the most honest and transparent about what Calvinism teaches.
What a truly sad story! The preaching was supposedly weak, but yet you were saved by it? Paulâs preaching was weak at times too!
Part of the problem is you rejected Calvinism on the basis that it wasnât what you were taught rather than the fact that it is not Biblical. What you describe could be said of the cults. There was someone who brought you under their wing and made you feel special and helped you to âgrowâ in your understanding of what the Bible âreallyâ means. You then go on to spread the false doctrine throughout your family who you are supposed to be the spiritual leader over. Just sad, sad, sad. Iâll pray that you come out from under Calvinism to the glorious light of the gospel!
Lurker wrote: Who/what is the first cause of justification unto life for everyone who believes? Is it God's choice, man's decision or something else?
âAnd the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.â ââGalatiansâŹ â3:8âŹ
God is the Justifier of those who believe.
âWhom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.â ââRomansâŹ â3:25-28, 30âŹ
The cause is God, by way of the righteousness of Jesus, who justifies those who believe. God sent His Son who made the way for people to be justified, but to receive justification, a person must believe.
Lurker wrote: 1) But, you have yet to descend to the bottom step of your system of belief and establish: "should they want to". 2) You have man, not God, determining who is elect (called) and who is not. You have man ultimately in charge of his eternal fate. 3) So I'm challenging you to make a biblical argument for your version of election so we may understand how we err.
1) I believe I have. The ability to want to believe is created within sinners from birth. Through natural revelation and by God sovereignly placing them in the time and place they are, so that they should seek Him. God has done nothing but help sinners to become saved because He loves the whole world and doesnât take pleasure in the death of sinners.
2) God has decided to make Israel His elect nation to whom the promises belong and Gentiles have been grafted in for a time so that they may inherit the promises through faith.
3) I think I just did. The Jews are the elect and others are grafted in. All are elect who are in Christ.
If Calvinist see me in a worse light because of my biblical beliefs in grace and faith, then I must be doing something right! What do I mean by traditional? For the first 1500 years of Christianity people believed in personal responsibility to obey God and believe. Thatâs what I mean by traditional. The Catholic Saint Augustine and his ilk are the only ones who believed differently. Mr. Augustine, came from religions and philosophical beliefs which believed in fatalism prior to him becoming a Christian. So it is no surprise that Calvin introduced those same ideas into the church, being a fan of the Catholic St. Augustine.
I forget if it was Finney or not, but there was an old style of preaching that you donât hear as much where the pastor tells the congregation that Jesus suffered the whips and lashes for all of your individual sins and suffered in the hottest of Hell to pay God back for your sins. It is ironic how the Reformers, who try to distance themselves from the sinners prayer and Catholic doctrine, get so much of their beliefs from the likes of Charles Finney and Catholicism!
People accusing me of being an Arminian donât know what Jacob Arminius believed. He believed, like Calvin, that people had to be enlightened by the Holy Spirit in order to believe. He believed the Holy Spirit then allowed people to decide for themselves if they wanted to believe in Jesus or not. Calvinism teaches the Holy Spirit makes you believe without exception. So you see, they are both wrong! The biblical view is that the preaching of the gospel enables people to believe should they want too. The salvation of the sinner is completely dependent on what Jesus has done for them and is received by faith.
Adriel wrote: "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins" - Eph 2:1
3) What does "dead in sin" mean?
5) In 1 Corinthinans 2, it teaches us that persons in this state cannot understand spiritual truths when spoken to them, until the Spirit renews them and gives them understanding."
3) âDead in sinâ does not say or mean the same thing as total depravity. Separation from our Creator is different than an inability to believe. So it still doesnât say or teach total depravity in the Bible.
5) 1 Corinthians 2 is written to Christians and they are told that they were acting like natural men because of their envy, strife, and divisions. Paul also says they canât understand spiritual things being carnal themselves. Yet, these people who couldnât understand things from the Holy Spirit could still understand the gospel and believe.
Adriel wrote: 1) God does not manifest truth to all sinners.
2) "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins" - Eph 2:1
3) What does "dead in sin" mean?
4) "Notice that in all three of the above Biblical references to the phrase "dead in sin" that the solution to spiritual death is God's quickening (or regeneration).
So much wrong in such a little space, I couldnât address it all in this response!
1) âThat was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.â ââJohnâŹ â1:9âŹ
âBut I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.â ââRomansâŹ â10:18âŹ
God does manifest the truth to all sinners. Thatâs not even part of TULIP, thatâs a freebie!
2) Being dead in sin doesnât mean they could not believe the gospel because they believed it while being dead in sin. I wonât mention that the term âtotal depravityâ is not found in any of those verses, nor is the concept taught.
3) These people were dead in sin. Not physically dead, but separated from God and with the capacity to believe or not. If they had no capacity to obey, they would not be able to sin either.
You mean like the Presbyterian Church USA?! Iâm not saying there arenât liberal churches of all sorts, but Reformed churches also have that problem. Either way, it doesnât prove or disprove your beliefs.
Thanks for the link, but I have been a member of a church that taught total depravity and was even the sound guy recording the sermon.
Your response to me is juvenile. âYes it is!â Am I supposed to say no itâs not? Declaring something to be true doesnât make it so. For one, none of the terms are in scripture. There is no arguing that. You then need to convince people if any of the theological ideas are and they obviously are not.
Iâll let an Arminian speak for themselves. Contrary to what Calvinist are taught, there arenât just two options. There is also the Biblical view! It teaches that God loves the whole word and made a way for them to be saved if they obey by faith, which they are able to do through the preaching of the gospel.
Why did sin spread to all men? Because they all sinned. Being separated from God because they are sinners, God made a way of escape for them in Jesus Christ, who is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. So while they are dead, should they believe, God will make them alive. TULIP isnât in the Bible!