“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:51, 61-62‬

Lurker wrote:
"I" ...... I thought so. Even the RCC and most Arminians try to give a little honor to God with their false doctrine of prevenient grace.

“And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭13:11

Is it okay to say “we” believed? That is the plural of “I”. Was Paul not giving God glory for their salvation?! They were the ones who believed, while God was the one who saved them.

“Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭9:35-38‬

Lurker wrote:
1) you apparently see that view supported by Acts 17:26-30.

2) Not wanting to put words in your mouth but may I assume this ability to believe unto justification of life is what most would call reason? Logic?

3) If all mankind receives the ability to believe unto justification of life at birth, what makes you differ from those who reject the gospel?

2) Is that a reference to Logos?

“And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:26-30‬

God has placed people where they are so they may seek Him. It is because of Him that we live and have any abilities, including faith. However, we must use that God given ability to obey His command and repent. We only have the ability to do that if we first hear the gospel.

Lurker wrote:
Thanks J4J,
It wasn't quite the direct answer I was hoping for but I'll work with the text you cited.
Faith comes by hearing.
Hearing comes by the word (Logos) of God.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word [Logos], and the Word [Logos] was with God, **and the Word [Logos] was God.**
So if one is able to hear, that hearing is by God (Logos). And if one has faith, that faith comes by hearing which is by God.
I believe we have finally gotten to the bottom of the matter, J4J. That is, unless you can demonstrate that I have not faithfully exegeted your prooftext.

Lurker...

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬

We receive the Holy Spirit by faith and without the Holy Spirit we do not belong to Christ. How can someone be “elect” and not even belong to Christ?! Jesus is the object of our faith. Faith is the obedient act of repentance from sins and trusting in Jesus for our salvation.

“But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭16:26‬

“And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭5:32‬

What a truly sad story! The preaching was supposedly weak, but yet you were saved by it? Paul’s preaching was weak at times too!

Lurker wrote:
Who/what is the first cause of justification unto life for everyone who believes? Is it God's choice, man's decision or something else?

God is the Justifier of those who believe.

“Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:25-28, 30‬

The cause is God, by way of the righteousness of Jesus, who justifies those who believe. God sent His Son who made the way for people to be justified, but to receive justification, a person must believe.

Lurker wrote:
1) But, you have yet to descend to the bottom step of your system of belief and establish: "should they want to".
2) You have man, not God, determining who is elect (called) and who is not. You have man ultimately in charge of his eternal fate.
3) So I'm challenging you to make a biblical argument for your version of election so we may understand how we err.

2) God has decided to make Israel His elect nation to whom the promises belong and Gentiles have been grafted in for a time so that they may inherit the promises through faith.

Adriel wrote:
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins"
- Eph 2:1

3) What does "dead in sin" mean?

5) In 1 Corinthinans 2, it teaches us that persons in this state cannot understand spiritual truths when spoken to them, until the Spirit renews them and gives them understanding."

Adriel wrote:
1) God does not manifest truth to all sinners.

2) "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins"
- Eph 2:1

3) What does "dead in sin" mean?

4) "Notice that in all three of the above Biblical references to the phrase "dead in sin" that the solution to spiritual death is God's quickening (or regeneration).

1) “That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:9‬

“But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:18‬

God does manifest the truth to all sinners. That’s not even part of TULIP, that’s a freebie!

2) Being dead in sin doesn’t mean they could not believe the gospel because they believed it while being dead in sin. I won’t mention that the term “total depravity” is not found in any of those verses, nor is the concept taught.

3) These people were dead in sin. Not physically dead, but separated from God and with the capacity to believe or not. If they had no capacity to obey, they would not be able to sin either.

You mean like the Presbyterian Church USA?! I’m not saying there aren’t liberal churches of all sorts, but Reformed churches also have that problem. Either way, it doesn’t prove or disprove your beliefs.

Thanks for the link, but I have been a member of a church that taught total depravity and was even the sound guy recording the sermon.