If you want to see what true spiritual darkness is like in all it's atrocities, go to yesterday's recorded program on C-Span of the "Interfaith Gathering." That would be Aug. 24, 2008.
I can hardly listen to the lies - supporting a party that upholds abortion, while at the same time upholding and even exalting those who have committed atrocious crimes that have them on death row as ones from which to learn forgiveness, and to show our compassion. Listen to Sister Helen Prejean - Roman Catholic nun and anti-death penalty activist.
How can this be that a sane person can be so inconsistent in his or her thinking?
The Bible says, "These people are given over to reprobate minds - because they rejected the truth, and believed a lie."
Romans 1:22 says, "professing to be wise, they became fools. .. .vs, 25, "for they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator..." vs. 28 "And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind. . ."
I just jumped on the treadmill, turned on C-Span coverage of the Democratic National Convention (yesterday's coverage), and was sickened by what I saw. It was called the "Interfaith Gathering."
A governor was declaring his Christian faith, sharing the stage with a Rabbi, a Muslim woman with head covering, and others. Then a Black singing group comes on singing one of the Psalms, without any reverence, but, rather in all worldliness.
For Christianity to be represented among these groups that deny Christ, is physically sickening to me - and, it's all for personal gain.
As I continue to listen - I must be a glutton for pain at the expense of knowing what is going on - those speaking spew forth lies, lies, and more lies - a Bishop for COG denouncing abortion, but supporting the Dem. party for the social gains - I guess that means money, money, and money for programs to keep the poor, poor, impoverished spiritually, not depending on the LORD, but looking to gov't to provide. No wonder Jesus said, "But will there be faith when the Son of Man cometh?"
So, let "Those who have insight give understanding to the many." I think that's in Daniel.
The song that I quoted in a previous post is so beautiful, that I'd like to post it in it's entirety. Great hymns of the past are great because of good Theology.
William Cowper, 1731-1800, wrote, "There is a Fountain" based on Zech. 13:1, "In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and uncleanness."
"There is a fountain filled with blood drawn from Immanuel's veins, and sinners plunged beneath that flood lose all their guilty stains."
"The dying thief rejoiced to see that fountain in his day, and there may I, though vile as he, wash all my sins away."
"Dear dying Lamb, Thy precious blood shall never lose its pow'r, till all the ransomed Church of God be saved to sin no more."
"E'er since by faith I saw the stream Thy flowing wounds supply, redeeming love has been my theme and shall be till I die."
"When this poor lisping, stamm'ring tongue lies silent in the grave, then in a nobler, sweeter song, I'll sing Thy pow'r to save."
ENGINEER wrote: It would be poetic justice if our rotten programming, and radiation of evil music and blasphemy were the cause of the current 'bee colony deaths'.
cf.Radiation from power lines that may be interfering with a beeâ€™s navigational capabilities--
Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols. It must really annoy the LORD that evolutionists insult His handiwork in designing the wonderful little BEE employed.
Revelation 11:18, "And the nations were angry,
and thy wrath is come,
and the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;
and SHOULDEST DESTROY THEM WHICH DESTROY THE EARTH."
HiChris wrote: If you live near any of the high voltage power lines (really big towers with heavy wires). Take a large fluorescent bulb (the long stick kind no the compact kind) and watch it light up as you stand under the wires!
No wonder honey bees are dying, and birds are dropping from the sky. I wonder about the effect on bats?
That can't be good for humans either!
Maybe that's why people have such a restlessness about them these days - ADD, ADHD.
Jim Lincoln wrote: Ah, I have to disagree with most of you, the book of Revelation revolves around Israel, the U.S.A. could be well destroyed even before the tribulation. One has to realized that the USA is not the most important country in the world, Israel is!
And, I would agree as to the possible destruction of America before God's final dealings with the world, and, also that God has a plan for Israel - a tiny country in terms of landmass and population, but a source of conflict for the whole world - described as a "cup of reeling for the whole world in the end times."
Once, again, a redeemed Israel will be God's instrument in witnessing to the world during the days of the false religious and political systems aligned worldwide under the leadership of the Antichrist.
OTOH, since we see things as they are now, and we see the summing up of all things, and America is now considered the dominant world leader, emphasis on "now," we look at these things and wonder.
So, my posts never suggested otherwise. Just "pondering these things that have been revealed to us" even as Mary pondered what was revealed to her through the Holy Spirit, and even as the prophets longed to understand what was written.
Daniel Lee Ford wrote: Others in the current age would take the Mohammaden world or Atheist China, or the Buddhist persecuters as fitting: note the "And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. " of 18:24, which is why Matthew Henry here said it must be the RCC: Some have computed, that, from the year 1518, to 1548, fifteen millions of Protestants have perished by the Inquisition.
Picking up these thoughts from previous exchanges re: Babylon's identity - I think we could eliminate those who would suggest the Islamic world, the atheist, and the Buddhists, since they never attached themselves to Jesus Christ and could not therefore be considered "the whore" of Revelation.
So, then we are back to Babylon being the RCC, which really seems to fit chptr. 17 (the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and martyrs of Jesus), but not 18 (the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury), so maybe the "spirit" is what is spoken of - or the "system."
Also, population being what it is now in major cities - millions - more souls could be lost in a moment than in centuries of history.
hidemi williges wrote: Christiana, I believe that we will never have all the answers in the Bible until we are with Jesus. You should never make any one part of the Bible your mainstay as it is all of equal importance. Some people talk about prophecy all day long and yet cannot tell you how to get saved. Some will go on and on about manuscript evidence and yet cannot tell you about righteousness. So you are wise not to make any one point your mainstay. 2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
I agree, Hidemi. I can rest with not knowing because I know the ONE who knows.
I don't have the answers, just a lot of questions. I have always been interested in Biblical prophecy - though I steer clear of those who make this the mainstay of their teaching/preaching.
I want to stay true to Scripture, so I will not adamantly state what I glean from reading on my own, and where I could be wrong - though, I do like to think on the Scripture I know when current events seemingly correspond.
However end time events play out, Jesus will return - "our Blessed Hope being in His Glorious appearing."
We, His redeemed people, will then "reign with Him." Reigning, is not the part of interest to me, but as with all those who love Him, it is to dwell in His presence that I desire and "no more sin."
Nonetheless, He has given us Scripture to describe our future with Him, and we are told, "..eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man, all that God has prepared for those who love Him." Don't you love that?
I remember that 1989 earthquake. I was in Charlotte, NC tuned in to the baseball game. What an experience that must have been for you. Glad you weren't injured.
hidemi williges wrote: The reference to the blood of the prophets and saints goes back to Rome. Consider all the inquisitions against Bible believers. Going to Rev 17 & 18, the colors purple and scarlet are the colors of the [RCC]. Rome is the only city built on 7 hills.
I know this is the historical position - 7 hills = Rome, & I know about the inquisitions & martyrs.
I've been to Vatican City, and the description in Rev. of merchandising, (seemingly from a world port) doesn't fit. Admittedly, I am no credentialed theologian.
Conjecture: 7 hills = 7 continents representing a world city of influence over the whole world? Farfetched? But, possible?
Also, the "city" is split into 3 parts by Great EQ - Conjecture: West Coast - New Madrid Fault - East Coast.
An earthquake in the NMF rung church bells in Phil. - or was it Boston? Occurred late 1800's, I believe. Sorry, I operate from memory which is not the best.
As to the colors of purple and scarlet in the RCC - that does represent a false system. We know those colors were used in the Temple in the OT, and Jesus was mockingly clothed in those colors before crucifixtion.
So, back to the question of translation of "city" in Rev. Could it be translated otherwise?
hidemi williges wrote: I believe it could include the U.S., there is also another possibility that the U.S. and Great Britain are destroyed before that time due to the support of the Nation of Israel. I agree with you that Babylon maybe be a confederation of nations that are in league with the one world religion that sets up a world financial empire. Although this is all just conjecture on my part.
When in Rev. "every tribe, and tongue, and people" is spoken of with reference to those whose blood has been shed, wouldn't America be more representative of such a mix of people than any other place on earth? The Great Melting Pot - over 400 yrs. -
Too, America was instrumental in setting up the "League of Nations" which is now the "United Nations" with HQ being in NYC.
The destruction of America and Great Britain because of support for Israel is part of my thinking on the end times events, as well. Can't remember the reference, but there is one to the effect "the one who sired her" destroyed as well. Possibility.
Is there fruition in conjecture? Some would discourage it, but the mind works that way.
Daniel Lee Ford wrote: We also need it 'worn' into the warp and woof of our lives by memorization and recitation. That preserves it and preserves US! And ensures salty preservation effects of bringing it up in daily conversation. It is hard to avoid speaking forth God's Word if you've been saying it ALOUD for devotions or in the car/ on your bike, when you stand up, sit down, when you walk the dogs,etc. "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Rom.10:17
True. If we hide God's Word in our hearts, as we are told to do in Psalm 119, we will easily speak it in conversation.
Abigail Adams and her husband John Adams left behind letters (enough for books to be written) between the two of them, and these letters reveal God's Word hidden in their hearts, included without reference in their correspondence.
William Wilberforce of England, as a young man, committed to "hiding God's Word" in his heart. God used him in a mighty way to end slavery in England and abroad.
God's Word hidden in our hearts, can not be taken from us, though Bibles may.
Daniel, your post is a good one for us to consider. Point 6 "Repetition" is key. If we spend time everyday just reading God's Word, it will "settle in" over time.
Daniel Lee Ford wrote: I've often said the same thing,or maybe being L.A. or the USA. [America could take}a direct hit or the earthquake of ch.16 Some of the type of reading is personal perspective, Dostoevsky thought Russia fit here, I was just reading his novel, "The Devils" , w/ the title from this viewpoint. "And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. " of 18:24, which is why Matthew Henry here said it must be the RCC:
Thank you for your post back. It is affirming to have some agreement concerning the Babylon of Rev. 16. I, too, have thought LA or America, as well, but the word is "city;" so, it would seem to rule out "nation" unless, the translation is insufficient.
I have "Demons" by Dostoevsky, but have yet to read it. Is that the one?
The reason I think NYC is because it is a world port, and the decription of the luxurious merchandise - and, sadly including "slaves and human lives" just rings true, though that could be said for a place like Hong Kong. But, then, the blood of prophets, saints, etc., brings one back to America, and representative of its founding by "God-fearing people, from many countries."
Faithful Remnant wrote: Yes, I agree, Christiana. We could get into money also, since the US has a lot of control over world economics(not to mention our own affluency and consumerist attitude) and we know what Revelation has to say about this too. That's my take. I might be wrong, but I don't see why I should opt for a different view of the issue.
It's good to know that there is a "faithful remnant" and that we share a faith that has been given to us. For that we can rejoice, because He who began the good work in us will complete it - He keeps us in His tender care.
Faithful Remnant wrote: It wouldn't surprise me if it is NYC or Los Angeles or the USA. We are doing a good job of broadcasting a bunch of filth around the world with our entertainment industries.
Hello, Faithful Remnant -
I agree with that!
Other countries view our country as one to compete with, and/or aspire to be like us, or else they hate us and want to destroy us.
Our representation in the world is a dominating influence in every area of life. Look at our influence on clothing styles around the world.
Other countries also, mistakenly, think of us as a Christian nation. When they see news and entertainment coverage, along with religious programming, can you imagine what a "skewed" perception they have of us?
I have friends who are from other countries, and we have had these discussions. American t.v. shows like "Sex and the City" are deemed unacceptable by their countries; yet, with the internet, government control is becoming more difficult in keeping their people from viewing such.
Freedom as given to us by our founding fathers, was for a religious and moral people. Today's freedom without that moral control, and with every indulgence, opens the door wide for great wickedness, here, and the export, thereof.
hidemi williges wrote: Just the beginning of sorrows. If they would only pick up and read their Bibles, they would learn the truth behind the earthquakes and maybe fall to their knees and repent of their sins.
Do you think the "Babylon" mentioned in Rev. 18 is symbolic and represents NYC?
When I read that description of Babylon, I can't help but think NYC.
You know Greek. Is city translated accurately?
vs. 7 says, "To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, "I sit as a queen and I am not a widow, and will never see mourning. For this reason in one day her plagues will come. . . and then vs. 10 says, "Woe, woe the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come." And then it goes on to describe the money brought in by all her trade, and the loss of that trade being mourned by those who did business with her.
This has always been my question when reading these passages, and, yet, I'm sure classical(orthodox) teaching would say otherwise, and others would dismiss the possibility that this could be true.
If this is not something you choose to address, I will understand.
CMT wrote: The bible is clear that God's wrath is on the wicked - not their sin. God sends sinners to hell, not sin. Hate the sin love the sinner is another saying in modern antinomian evangelicalism.
I totally agree with this post. "God's wrath rest on the wicked." But, I would say that it is God's justice that sends people to hell, and not His hatred of them.
"God is love." Verses that describe His relationship to Esau as "have I hated," does not mean "hate" as we understand it.
I know this sounds simplistic, but I know the love that God has given me, many times even for those who have made themselves my enemy. This amazes me, and I know that God loves with Agape love - pure love - that He is love, and love and hate cannot co-exist.
So, because God is Holy, He cannot "hate" as we think of "hatred." It is His justice that requires penalty for sin unatoned for, and that is why unrepentant sinners go to hell.
Is there a place to ask questions, rather than interrupting a conversation on a particular survey or thread?
For example, "Does anyone have an opinion on the writings of Dallas Willard or Evelyn Underhill?"
These were recommended by a friend who has stayed in a PCA church that has moved in the direction of the mystical in a effort to "get all God has to offer."
Perhaps these have influenced her in this direction, since I cannot read them as they disturb my soul; as was my reaction when same church group was studying RW's PDL. I could not continue to read the book, as I was disturbed by the light treatment of a "Holy God" whom we serve and are not "buddy, buddy" as RW suggests.
Anyway, the question is: "Is there a place on SA to ask such questions?"