Christopher000 wrote:
Sir,/ma'am, does this God you speak of and serve love me?

Ps 146.8 the Lord loveth the righteous

Prov 15.9 he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.

Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell

Psalm 11:5 The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

How can a Holy God love any differently?

The scenario you present affords a wonderful opportunity to explore the whole notion of righteousness and open up to him the fall and reign of sin in humankind and the divine problem of how God can be just and the justifier of the ungodly.

Christopher, do you want to do this as a dialogue? We can take it one part at a time. You can act the person asking and I will make appropriate biblical responses.

If we do this interactively, you may get more than any imagined line of thinking. This way you can pose the problems that come to your mind rather than someone else's dreamed up problems.

What say you?

________________________

Brother UPS

Happy to continue exploring the topic.

Unprofitable Servant wrote:
Brother Observer
What lie would that be?
Telling them a loving God provided a way for sinners to saved? (Luke 5:32; I Timothy 1:15)
Telling them they should repent (something we know the non-elect will not do) and call out to God for mercy? (Acts 3:19;I Peter 2:10;Acts 26:20)
Telling them that in Jesus Christ they can find forgiveness of sins?
(Acts 13:38)
You don't think God's mercy proceeds from His love?
Please be more specific brother, thanks

The lies are those that some choose to tell individual sinners e.g. God loves YOU and died for YOU etc.

General statement made about sinners as a class may be true but when particularized may become a lie and that is the issue that I have with these kind of statements.

And the attempt by some to change the bible's theology just so that they can be free to make those sorts of statements to individual sinners is wholly reprehensible.

The gospel is good news in general for sinners, that God in his great mercy has provided a Savior, who has honored that holy law that sinners have broken thereby incurring the wrath of God and that the Savior in dying made satisfaction to the demands of divine justice for his people viz. those who will repent and believe. And so now the proclamation of pardon is made to all who will repent and believe upon Christ, calling upon the name of the Lord to be saved.

In fact we could go further and say with the Apostle that God commandeth all men everywhere to repent.

The gospel is not an invitation. It is a Royal Proclamation followed by a command given to everyone who hears it.

In the olden days heralds were extremely careful to herald only the form of words that they were given so that the message was exactly as was intended.

Heralds of the gospel add to their peril anything that changes the message of God.

Now in limiting the "good news" of pardon to those who repent and believe, we are being faithful to John 3.16 and the entire NT.

I could say a great deal more, but I hope bro UPS that you get the drift of what I am saying.

Jeremiah 31:3

The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Those that he draws

John 14:21

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Those that keep his commandments

John 16:27

For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Those who love Jesus and believe him

Romans 9:25

As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Those who are his People

"..... thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins..."

____________________

Bro UPS

Is lying a sin? Should we lie in presenting the gospel?

So what is the gospel that is committed to us which does not involve us lying?

Matt 8

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Just imagine the shock to the Jewish mind that any of the Jews should be cast out into outer darkness!!

All the first disciples were Jewish and had to have all such thinking trained out of their minds. So when they write epistles where there were fellow Jews present this point had to keep being emphasised that the previously "heathen" who are now believers have a share in the same blessings that were promised to Abraham.

Before I answer bro UPS, I would like to add a few comments.

Some not happy with the DOG are trying desperately to keep one foot in the camp and another in the semi-arminian camp, and then carping at those who notice this and criticize such a position.

In this thread we have already seen absurd attempts to define "world' and "all" in such a way that of necessity it entails redefining our understanding of propitiation, substitutionary atonement etc. It just shows that biblical truth has such a wonderful symmetry and consistency that you disturb one part, you start to disturb the whole. A little leaven etc.

The coming of our Savior was THE fulfilment of the OT promises. This is what the OT saints looked forward to. Now the promise of blessings to the human race were first announced in the garden in shadow as the seed crushing the serpents head. However the Jewish nation thought this as applicable only to them, despite the international aspect elaborated in the promises to Abraham:

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

God loves YOU, and wants to save YOU and on the basis of an all sufficient atonement pleads with YOU to repent and believe for forgiveness.

All sounds really good doesn't it. Sounds like good news to all, yes?

Problem is that he still believes in effectual calling viz. that God has to draw the sinner and grant them repentance and faith and he knows that that is only vouchsafed to the elect.

Now this is a real problem - he was trying to bring good news to the non-elect because of the sufficiency of Christ's death but he knows that in reality it is not good news because sufficiency doesn't actually do the job. It is efficiency which makes it good news.

And so with as much deception as he can muster up and with flowery words and sentiments he has to keep this hidden in case he is lumped with those horrible DOG people who will not tell the non-elect that God loves them and who in his opinion have no love or message for them. Truth be told, neither does John UK because by his own beliefs the non-elect will never be saved but worse still he lies to them that God loves them in a saving way and that he is prepared to save them!

No one denies that the benefits of Christ's life, death and resurrection apply internationally, which is how the Jews would have understood those passages. But that is not enough for John. He insists that it must be for every individual whether elect or not, and that this therefore gives him the true gospel which consists in him being able to say to someone God loves YOU and wants to save YOU and hence the reason why he feels able to look down his nose at other people who do hold to the DOG without his modification.

But, he still has problems to overcome.....

Let's clarify a few things so that the John's continual muddying of waters doesn't confuse everyone.

The doctrines of grace teach that sinful mankind is totally helpless when it comes to their salvation and that God must of necessity do everything. In fact he does this through an eternal compact between the members of the Godhead, where the Father is pleased to give the Son a people (a definite number aka the elect) to redeem, the Son agrees to come and do all that is necessary for their salvation (hence his active and passive obedience) and the Holy Spirit is pleased then to apply the benefits of Christ's work to the elect. The Holy Spirit works through the instrumental agency of the word of God and in particular the preached gospel.

Now, what we believe affects the way that we preach the gospel. Any person who believes that only the elect will be saved, cannot in good conscience say to any single individual that God loves them and wants to save them, unless they know for sure that person's election. Those who don't believe in election or a definite atonement may do so, but not someone who believes in the doctrines of grace.

John UK wrote:
Simple faith is required.
So we have:
1. preaching the cross to all
2. some believe the message
3. God is pleased to save those who believe

I do not understand your veiled threat. Why so cryptic?

Why did you stop the quotation where you did? What about verse 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God? Or vs 26-31 which clearly demonstrate that it is God's calling and work that makes the difference and none should therefore glory in anything else? Conveniently left out.

But let's ignore the purposeful selective quoting to mislead and move on.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Care to explain the above "paradox"?

How does someone who is dead in trespasses in sins come to this simple faith? Presumably you have also now jettisoned total depravity and would argue for innate ability in the sinner to believe, as opposed to faith being the gift of God?

John UK wrote:
To some it is foolishness, and they will certainly perish; to others it comes to them with God's power and they believe it and are saved.

John UK wrote:
...
There are over a million sermons here on SermonAudio, and many of them are by IFB churches. Does Observer e-mail all those pastors and mock them? Many of the churches are Presbyterian. Does Observer write to the pastors and mock them? What about the Methodist churches here on SA? Does Observer mock their pastors and congregations? There are even Anglican churches and Anglican sermons by Ryle. "Now there's one big, mixed-up man of God," says Observer.

John UK wrote:
...
So, what is happening

What is clear to all of us, even if not to yourself, is that increasingly you are espousing positions directly contrary to the DOG and then you take opportunity to attack those who also hold to the DOG from those newly espoused positions.

So it's time you were called out for you really believe.

No one is forcing you into any position by such discussions. But they will defend their beliefs from the Bible whether you like it or not. If you don't like that, then don't participate in those discussions. Simple.

______________________

Bro Lurker

Your analysis is the same as mine, but I cannot keep silent for the sake of the truth.

John UK wrote:
Sure, I have your answer concerning, well, I will have to rephrase your question, seeing as you do not have that compassion of Paul the apostle for his countrymen, for whom he would have given up his place in heaven, so loved he them, and would have took the accursed route, if he could have saved them. Save who? Oh, just a load of goats, don't you know. But later....

You have a new take on Romans 9-11. Wow! Ever inventing new doctrines John. Must make your head spin.

BTW - having pity or even compassion on people is not the issue. No one is saying God is a monster or that we need be such, excepting you because of your ever growing dislike for the reformed faith.

The issue is that you see something in the atonement for people that God has not elected, which you say is missing from our gospel. I would like to know what that is.

Maybe you've now renounced the view that no one can come to God without his drawing? Because if you haven't then you still have no good news for goats.

Oh and BTW - Paul makes it clear in Romans 9-11 that no matter how strongly he may have felt about his countrymen, only the election of grace (the sheep) will obtain the promises. So where is the good news to the non-elect?

Lurker wrote:
Thanks, John.
As I have no desire to rekindle a dead end discussion, I will hold my peace.
All the best to you.

John UK wrote:
Note,
Isaiah 45:22 KJV
(22)  Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
John 1:29 KJV
(29)  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Sure, there is a paradox. The intelligentsia want to wrap God up and make him as small as themselves. But God is not having any of it.

So John UK, are you now a Universalist?

Or are you saying that God is incoherent and can't seem to make his mind up whether he is saving every single individual or not? Or perhaps you're maintaining that we should park our brains and not expect consistency in God's declarations because God is not logical?

I am just about to hit the sack and looked in to see whether you'd responded to my earlier post. I can't see a response yet.

I am genuinely interested to hear what this good news is that you present to goats that they can rejoice in and that God is so pleased with. So, when you have a moment please do share with all of us on SA. And don't forget to show from God's word clearly that the message is biblical and that this is THE message that pleases the Lord.

To save you scrolling down to find my question here it is again.

We know that goats will never desire salvation or any of its benefits and (if you're a genuine believer in the doctrines of grace) you should know that God will not grant it to them. So what is the good news in the gospel for goats you think we're being negligent in sharing with them and thereby bringing upon ourselves the frown of God and forfeiting untold blessings?

Is it that God loves them so much that he will not save them? Salvation is of the Lord, right?

And, I'll add another which I didn't ask before. Since you believe that this good news for goats is tied to the infinite value of Christ's blood, I'd like to see your scriptural proofs that Christ's blood procured anything for goats.

Thank you.

Kev wrote:
Hey Christopher like I have said many times before many have a hatred for the God of the Bible. These things need to be brought to light in hopes of some to come to repentance and accepting the truth. We can’t just create some God out of a few choice texts we take out of the Bible. It’s better to get these things exposed better now then before a Holy Rigtheous God. Hopefully John UK who AM respects helps AM out. I’ve noticed all things come to light with time. No one minds a baby Jesus in a manger but when you tell them about the King of kings who is seated at the right hand of the Father and sovereignly sets His love on who He will and cast others off declaring He never even knew them people gnash their teeth. The Doctrines of Grace are not just some thing we just say well we can just agree to disagree this cuts to the heart of man’s rebellion against the Almighty who works all things after the council of His own will.

@Christopher

The question was rhetorical, because I know you wouldn't have thought such a thing let alone draft it or post it.

Thanks for the Spanish lesson. I'll try and return the favor sometime.

Christopher000 wrote:
...
I know Michael was trying to shock a point across, but, well, um, I think frustration got the best of him, a mistake was made, and I'm thinking he realizes that now, I would imagine.
...

Something very wrong with his moral compass and certainly his disdain for the Lord's work, speaking of it in the same spirit as an atheist would, reveals a great deal about him.

Rodney K. wrote:
Do any of these sound synonymous with "Court", "Woo", or "Win the heart of"?
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW (G1670) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(John 6:44)
Simon Peter went up, and DREW (G1670) the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
(John 21:11)
And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and DREW (G1670) them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
(Acts 16:19)
And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and DREW (G1670) him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.
(Acts 21:30)
But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and DRAW (G1670) you before the judgment seats?
(James 2:6)