JD, Yamil, Abigail et al; Proving Free Will is incongruous in man.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
"The principal efficient cause of the performance of this duty is the Spirit:-- "If by the Spirit." The Spirit here is the Spirit mentioned in verse 11, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God, that "dwells in us," verse 9, that "quickens us," verse 11; "the Holy Ghost," verse 14; the "Spirit of adoption," verse 15; the Spirit "that maketh intercession for us," verse 26. All other ways of mortification are vain, all helps leave us helpless; it must be done by the Spirit. Men, as the apostle intimates, Romans 9:30-32, may attempt this work on other principles, by means and advantages administered on other accounts, as they always have done, and do: but, saith he, "This is the work of the Spirit; by him alone is it to be wrought, and by no other power is it to be brought about." Mortification from a self-strength, carried on by ways of self-invention, unto the end of a self-righteousness, is the soul and substance of all false religion in the world." (J. Owen)
"We are delighted that the Church of England has suggested a donation to The Children's Society as the alternative 'treat' for people joining in the Halloween Choice campaign."
= How to sanctify halloween???
Well I suppose if you've lost the plot as far as the Bible is concerned, you have to flog something to the masses. Hence the C of E preoccupation with the Social Gospel. Now lets see what their message is.
* It's ok to be a Sodomite because the law of God doesn't count today in these Liberal times.
* The Bible wasn't written by God, men put their ideas into it, so it's ok to delete the veses that we don't like.
* All religions are acceptable as long as they are nice to the C of E.
* Women can go into the pulpit because God has changed His mind about the old rules in Scripture.
* Family is not man and woman married under the authority of God, it can be any combination of genders as long as the C of E blesses the idea.
* Homosexuality/Trans gender is ok because the C of E can sanctify any sin.
* The C of E and the RCC are almost reunited, because the Reformation didn't really count and wasn't very nice anyway.
It is sad yet very pertinent to state here that the seed of the problem's of both the decline of the RCC and the C of E is ARMINIANISM.
Jim Lincoln wrote: There is UNLIMITED atonement but there is not UNLIMITED election. So, Calvin was wrong.
Hello Jim; "Limited Atonement" 1] Who will apply the Limit? - God will. 2] Why apply a limit? - Because HE will obviously not allow His Son to pay for any more than the elect. 3] The free grace gift of atonement is presented by God alone to whom He alone chooses. 4] There is NO reason for God to extend atonement to anybody else, is there? 5] God's gift of atonement is applied within His omniscience. This narrows it's extent by divine means and purpose. 6] God will not "waste" atonement will He? 7] Spurgeon wrote, "Thou hast measured and computed the iniquity of man, for thou hast laid it on the Well-Beloved; and we know thou hast not laid upon Him more than is meet" (Spurgeon's Prayers)
Why would our omnipotent/omniscient God NOT be precise, on such a divine act and purpose such as this?
Matt 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save *HIS PEOPLE* from their sins.
John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
Jim; If election is limited, - Why would God extend the atonement to anyone else?
JD wrote: If this is a scripturally accurate statement, then the burden is upon him to show how believing the gospel is equivalent to working for salvation. It cannot be done and he knows it. So, he quotes reformed men who says it and not scripture. His autority are these men.
The problem with JD's statement above are the words "believing the Gospel"
JD, as with others of the Arminian conviction, will approach Scripture with the belief that man can overcome sin and the Lord needs their cooperation to assist Him unto THEIR salvation.
Whereas the Reformed Church always approach Scripture knowing God is Sovereign and man is Totally Depraved.
The Arminian/Free Will/Synergist method of salvation relies completely upon the sinner deciding to repent and use human faith unto salvation, which they conclude the sinner can loose anyway. (I suppose if you rely on mans salvation then you can loose that easily).
Salvation relied upon of mans ability is NO salvation. But is salvation reliant upon human effort. THUS salvation by works. Which doesn't work of course.
Wayne M. wrote: Calvinism is not the gospel that Paul preached. It is the five points of TULIP, with which I do not disagree. If you claim the five points of TULIP is the gospel, you are preaching another gospel.
Calvinism is a great deal more than TULIP, if that is what you infer here Wayne. I apologise if I have misread you.
But lets take only TULIP and "Christ Crucified"
T - Sin so comprehensive in the mortal that ONLY Christ Crucified, God's only begotten, can save us from such sin.
U - Only Christ Crucified's merits can possible bring us before God. All our righteousness is like a filthy rag by comparison.
L - Christ Crucified died for the elect and only those. Thus HIS sacrifice, in such a love as this, can save us from the whole sinful human race, and the wrath to come.
I - The "grace" of Christ Crucified is so full of the divine power of HIS love that none can resist it. Praise be to our Lord of Love.
P - Without the grace, love, mercy, providence and promise of Christ Crucified none could "persevere" to the glory of God and HIS precious Son.
May the Love of the Crucified Saviour be with us all.
Hughie wrote: Where is the love of Christ (which I have been criticized for speaking about in this thread) in these posts?, to me, or I would argue that to the casual observer it is non existent but more like listen to Me Me Me, Iâ€™m right right right.
Hughie, You're being very "Dogmatic" about this one aspect or attribute of Christ. Check out Christ's teachings in the Gospels and note that HE didn't simply focus on any one particular aspect of Christian life and doctrine.
For example HE is credited about referring most to hell, than other teachers.
And look at HIS comment to the "church" of HIS day in Matt 23:13-29.
Let's debate ALL of Christian doctrine and learn more from each other, - even if we do differ on many points.
Spiritual wrote: I live in a church community with the homeless whom we take in and shelter with no help from the American imperial state system. "SELL YOUR POSSESSIONS, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail,
Looks like popish monastery life is still alive and kicking. The big sign "spiritual" lives under in large neon letters says; "Look at me God, choose me because I am wonderful"
Works based religion is the statement of alias "spiritual"
It is therefore no surprise that he posts the social gospel of the Liberals and salvation by works of Rome.
JD wrote: Of course some religions have regeneration before faith and they do not have "might have life" but "will have life" not because of faith but because of election.
What JD is trying to establish as usual is the old Roman fallacy of salvation by works.
Again he demotes God from His Sovereign status.
Again he promotes the sinner to overcome sin and teaches that Christ's merits, grace and the Holy Spirit are not required.
The ego of these Arminians has to be the biggest on the planet.
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the PURPOSE of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
How I wish JD and the other Romanist Baptists could improve there Bible reading skills.
Lance Eccles wrote: This sounds to me very much like a Protestant version of a "Jesuit" letter. The Jesuits would have had no interest in planting Arminianism. To them it would have been just another heresy.
Lance, Me boyo The Jesuit Doctrine of "Molinism" is just another title for Arminianism.
"What the Jesuits were loathe to admit, was that Molinism was nothing more than a rebirth of the ancient Pelagianism heresy, although it actually more easily likened to "Semi-Pelagianism" which contends that man cannot be saved apart from God's grace; however, fallen man must cooperate and assent to God's grace before he will be saved. The Jesuits recognized that the Protestants would never embrace the teachings of a Catholic Spanish monk, so they capitalized on the growing and open debates taking place within Protestantism. Molinism would be recast as Arminianism, and eventually, it would take over the ecclesiastical world. A famous quote from de Molina eerily fortells of the Jesuit lie that proceeds from the mouths of "evangelical" leaders today: "all human beings are endowed with equal and sufficient divine grace without distinction as to their individual merits, and that salvation depends on the sinner's willingness to receive grace"(M. Bunker)
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Thats right Abigail Just as you don't believe 1Peter 1:2
Don't believe this one either.
John 15:16 YE HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME, but I have CHOSEN you, and ORDAINED you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Christian Raas wrote: By the way I do not even know what Arminianism is and I do not care for it.
You are an Arminian CR.
As for Calvinism and Westminster. It is never, nor has ever been a matter of "needing" them unto salvation. But simply that they both teach the Biblical Doctrines, which those who are led by the Holy Spirit can perceive and agree with. Truth does not change from century to century, it remains the same in sermons preached today and in the 16th century. That is why the Reformed Church maintains the Biblical Doctrines of Grace and continues to teach and practice them.
Abigail wrote: The Calvinists have a very easy religionâ€”just believe what the Reformers wroteâ€”and you are on your way to heaven,
No! No! Abigail;
The Reformed Church knows that the Truth does not change from day to day, nor from century to century.
We also hear, accept and experience the promise of Scripture that the Holy Spirit guides us into all Truth, - throughout all time.
John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."
Therefore with the aid of the Holy Spirit we can perceive and verify the Truth, in the writings of our forebears in the Reformed Church, and by Grace see the Biblical doctines in them.
I guess you can't achieve this in your Pentecostal church which has only recently been invented, what was it 1870???