Lee wrote: Sex Perverts? I hate it how many people are willing to call gay's perverts etc... though would you say the same about a straight unmartial sexual relationship? We need to be a lot more sensitive and loving about the way we speak about homosexuality. We've elevated it to a position of being worse than other sins like lying and adultery. Do I think homosexuality is a sin? Yes. But frankly the way some evangelicals speak about homosexuals is criminal.
sodomy is a particularl sin in the Bible, worse than other sins but the present problem has begun with the church because of the churches accomodation with divorce and remarriage
If Gods people had obeyed the Biblical standard even tho a minority i dont believe we would be seeing the present normalisation of sodomy
the normalisation of divorce and remarriage first then fornication, then sodomy next will be bestiality and pedophilia
Gods people are to be salt and light but to late now
Alan H wrote: prince charles, I think you misunderstood me when I mentioned opening "a can of worms." I was speaking only of the statement which I made concerning God's predetermination of the elect, saying, "God has determined in eternity that which is yet to be fulfilled in time." That's why I added, "Man, I can hear it now!" I expected to get jumped...
oh yes i see, yes its usually guaranteed a reaction !
maybe not this time tho as its had a good flogging recently - wont be long tho..................
ah now we are getting to the meat of it john, experiential christianity vs formulaic, i think this is what troubles me about the conversation i related but i couldnt relate it properly. I have to be honest but when just a few of us met and took it in turns to teach one another there was something there a joy and companionship which i didnt fully appreciate but that has gone of late, maybe having a 'real teacher' wasnt the way to go
Alan H wrote: prince charles, I agree with John UK & Michael.
thanks alan yes i think i agree with everything thats being said and very helpfull it is to.
the ask jesus theology is so widespread here that ive never heard anyone except me chalenge it, after all it sounds reasonable enough like the JW's until you start taking a closer look
If this is a can of worms i think its one thats worthwhile opening given the universal use of 'the phrase' also we are dealing with a great mystery here so its not suprising that understanding is hard to come by
As you say I am glad to talk about how God dealt with me but sadly, I am offended at the trivial way that it was received.
Also I am concerned for my familys doctrine as this man offered to lead our Bible study and since we had prayed for more people to come to the group and he became available so I thought it was an answer to prayer but now I am beggining to wonder if God is displeased that i didnt carry on as before since we were well blessed before and is teaching me a lesson about faithfulnes
there is a way that this can be turned to advantage that is by testing the statement within the group and I can expose it which will be a good lesson for family as they will hear this again
Michael Hranek wrote: I have to thank God. I first came across Paris Reidhead's wonderfully convicting message "10 Shekels and a Shirt" here on sermon audo. And I was greatly blessed to happened
that semon is one of the first i listened to on SA dont ask me how i came to it back then i knew nothing of doctrine but it was one of the most influential sermons i ever heard and i still think about it and quote it at times
Thanks john, i was a bit fed up to be honest, I knew then something of the fear of God which i believe is a gift, not something I would share lightly.
I always say when i relate it that it must be what the unrepentant sinner experiences at judgement to late everything is made horribly clear, divinely imparted needing only the presence of Gods glory, I have thanked God that he allowed me this when there was still time.
Yes exactly the sinners prayer has become the new thing which name i cant remember when the poor sinners gave money so their sins would be forgiven like that
yes indeed jim, a good synopsis, it was one of the anglican bishops, it might even have been ryle who said he took great pleasure in occasionaly meeting a christian !
the present and historical condition of the 'universal' church has been so deplorable that its one of the reasons why i find the doctrine of election such a comfort, it doesnt matter what kind of a mess the church is in the elect will always be brought to the truth, in a way you could say that its yet another way that our great God brings glory to himself or put another way, allthings glorify God even the church !
John UK wrote: Hello Charles Tell me, when you "passed from death unto life" by the grace of God, were you aware at that time of "effectual calling and unconditional election"?
Ha Ha yes john uou are quite right, at the time i had no concept of these ideas. I was explaining to the pastor (retd) that i was contemplating the things of God, being at the time a believer in the bible and a creationist when I had the experience of something of the glory of God, It immediately nade me see my sad and desperate position in a moment everything was stark and clear, as i was relating this, instead of listening he kept asking me if id asked jesus into my heart.
are we supposed to parade our desperate pleas for salvation for the whole world to see ? i find that to reduce my own experience to the trite billy grahamesque phrase which isnt even in the bible is trivialising it hence my (concealed ) irritation (im very gracious you see !)
Michael Hranek wrote: prince charles I can hardly believe what you wrote. Always saved???
whoa guys ! i felt i was being quizzed from an arminist perspective and i just couldnt agree with the premise of the question.
The inference was when were you saved ? To which i replied the question was false since through the providence of God my name was written in the lambs book of life before the foundation of the world was laid, the correct question is when were you made aware of your election and calling and hence prompted to to take the neccessary steps of believing and repenting
the 'ask jesus into your life ' brigade want a formulaic account of conversion which accords with in this case baptist orthodoxy and youd better parade it for them or else !
As i pointed out last night the bible does NOT say 'ask jesus into your heart and you will be saved'
such error is works religeon
i believe i agree with you john and michael, we must recieve Jesus, we must receive what is given to us, must call on His name yes but the thing being received at a point in time is the thing that has been given to us in ages past. The point of receiving occurs when our depraved nature has been overcome but Gods ordinances were decreed before
Alan H wrote: Here's the real problem: we used to have a God who was a Savior, now we have a god who must wait.
I had a similar conversation last night very helpful to read this this morning although my man does not sound as bad as yours, your chap was totally wrong
A retd baptist minister was asking me about my 'conversion experience' and then asked me so when did you ask jesus into your heart? as we talked i thought this is dumb - the bible doesnt say that, and i told him it was piece of baptist formula and that as one of the elect i was always saved its a question of when one becomes aware of your election and calling with of course the neccesary repentance and signs of conversion and sealing
Men like this will accept any profesion of faith so long as its accompanied by the appropriate catechism, in this case 'asking jesyus into your heart' you can live like a devil thereafter you are still a christian
i had the scattergun verses treatment but they dont justify the position
satan is not busy in the bars and workplaces, his job is done there, he is working hard amongst the brethren
ezek 22 v 26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.
ezek 2 4 For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD
Neil wrote: Interestingly, T.E. Lawrence, in his book "Seven Pillars of Wisdom," recorded rather scandalous interpersonal habits of Arab soldiers while campaigning against the Turks during WW1. So maybe the pot is calling the kettle black here?
Oh definitely, I understand that sodomitical practices are widespread in these areas for instance Yasser arafat was a homosexual and sodomy was practiced within the PLO.
When I went ashore off the ships anywhere from turkey eastwards I would see men holding hands and being a slim handsome youth myself in those days would occasional receive certain 'appraising' looks but it wont stop the immams from using the wests codifying of this behaviour as a propagands tool
once i tied up next to another ship at a place at the bottom of the red sea and the other ships crew were from sri lanka and they were caressing each other on deck !
another time i sailed with a pakistani crew and even tho they had individual cabins they would leave both pairs of shoes outside presumably as a do not disturb sign !
ellen wrote: Divorce is out of question to me, GOD hates it..and so l have to hate it too.
ellen do you believe Jesus taught that there was no allowance for divorce even in the case of adultery ?
I do myself, mathew 29 i believe teaches that divorce is only available on the grounds of fornication (relations before marriage) since jesus uses adultery and fornication in the same passage He must have done so for a reason, ie they are different things
The modern church has compromised on this issue to disastrous effect allowing people to divorce and remarry but Jesus taught that if you remarried you were an adulterer, its a hard teaching but it seems clear enough
what do you think ?(we dont have many women on here !)
Steve Middleton wrote: As for Benny and a His salvation, He is saved and you Have no Authority to Judge Him.
ezek 22 v 26
Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.
btw that quote from 1cor 1 Corinthians 2 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.---NASB
in the KJ that last word is 'discerned'
which seems better to me because ' apparaised ' suggests some natural faculty on the part of the reader or hearer to evaluate what he has heard and find the truth whereas the bible teaches that we are given to understand as a gift
it may be a small point but i find these things all the time with non AV texts