1 Corinthians 15:21-22 NLT "So you see, just as death came into the world through a man, now the resurrection from the dead has begun through another man. Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life."
There is no avoiding the headship. If you avoid the headship of Adam, you also must avoid the headship of Christ. Federalism divides all men into one of two camps: Adam's camp and Christ's camp. And we are either in Adam or we are in Christ. There is no fence sitting with this basic of all doctrines. Is Adam your head or is Christ your head?
Is the subject difficult? Why not begin here and study up on it until you get it. I guarantee that when you get it, you will become more joyful, more worshipful, more zealous, more content, more assured. And you will never ever consider anything you have done contributes any merit regarding your salvation. The federal headship of Adam or Christ discounts that as a possibility. Just as Adam is separate from you in the matter of your being dead in sins and will die twice more in the future, so Christ is separate from you in the matter of your being accounted righteous (justified) and will live for ever in the power of an endless life.
Romans 5:12-14 NLT "When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adamâ€™s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break. Still, everyone diedâ€”from the time of Adam to the time of Mosesâ€”even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. Now Adam is a symbol, a representation of Christ, who was yet to come."
Roman 5:16-18 NLT "And the result of Godâ€™s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one manâ€™s sin. For Adamâ€™s sin led to condemnation, but Godâ€™s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is Godâ€™s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ. Yes, Adamâ€™s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christâ€™s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone."
If you deny Adam's sin bringing condemnation to all, you deny Christ's righteousness as the means of reconciliation between sinners and God.
Lurker wrote: Here's what you are overlooking: Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Imputation of sin by the law. Paul (along with all the Jews) was brought "under the law" on Damascus Road.
Lurker, you say you want me to answer your text and point you make, but it will be impossible to do so without referring to imputed sin on all before the law came (Sinai), even death upon all who did not sin according to Adam's sin (so in that sense were born innocent) in the very next verse. So why did they die, if the wages of sin is death? Simply because of Adam's sin imputed to them. They inherited it. They were there in the garden. Sin is the only cause of death. They had not sinned. Therefore you are only left with Adam's sin imputed to them. And that is what happened. And Adam's sin imputed to all means that all die. The Bible even says that, it is plain teaching.
As for the expression 'under the law'. Baby boys who were born under the law were circumcised at eight days old. Saul of Tarsus was circumcised when he was eight days old. Therefore.....Therefore......
Lurker, it gets late here, so I will have to sign off until the morning, when I will be looking at your new text and showing how Adam's sin imputed to the human race, brought death to all, even before the law was given.
I didn't look up my commentators on e-sword until this evening, when I was delighted to find that Matthew Henry, John Gill and Albert Barnes all agreed with me but in a deeper way (naturally) and only one disagreed, which was Adam Clarke. Anyway, I am sorry to introduce John Gill to the debate, but I thought his words so helpful as to provide benefit. I usually find him helpful, and being a Baptist holding to the Biblical Doctrines of Free and Sovereign Grace, I always enjoy reading what he has to say.
"whilst a Pharisee; who, though he was born under the law, was brought up and more perfectly instructed in it than the common people were, and was a strict observer of it, yet was without the knowledge of the spirituality of it; he, as the rest of the Pharisees, thought it only regarded the outward actions, and did not reach to the spirits or souls of men, the inward thoughts and affections of the mind; the law was as it were at a distance from him, it had not as yet entered into his heart and conscience; and whilst this was his case he was "alive", he did not know that he "was dead in trespasses and sins", Eph_2:1, a truth he afterwards was acquainted with; nor that he was so much as disordered by sin; he thought himself healthful, sound, and whole, when he was diseased and full of wounds, bruises, and sores, from head to foot; he lived in the utmost peace and tranquillity, without the least ruffle and uneasiness, free from any terror or despondency, and in perfect security, being in sure and certain hope of eternal life; and concluded if ever any man went to heaven he certainly should, since, as he imagined, he lived a holy and righteous life, free of all blame, and even to perfection;" John Gill Romans 7:9a
"...but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9
"but when the commandment came; not to Adam in the garden of Eden; nor to the Israelites on Mount Sinai; but into the heart and conscience of the apostle, with power and light from above: sin revived; it lift up its monstrous head, and appeared in its ugly shape, exceeding sinful indeed; it grew strong and exerted itself; its strugglings and opposition, its rebellion and corruption were seen and felt, which show that it was not dead before, only seemed to be so; it was in being, and it lived and acted before as now; the difference was not in that, but in the apostle's sense and apprehension of it, who upon sight of it died away: and I died; he now saw himself a dead man, dead in sin, dead in law, under a sentence of death which he now had within himself; he saw he was deserving of eternal death, and all his hopes of eternal life by his obedience to the law of works died at once; he now experimentally learnt that doctrine he so much insisted afterwards in his ministry, and to the last maintained, that there can be no justification of a sinner by the deeds of the law, since by it is the knowledge of sin." John Gill
Lurker wrote: If you were serious about teaching me orthodoxy, you'd take the proofs I posted and explain exactly how they don't mean what they clearly say.
Well I did that once and you ignored it, Lurker. So let us try again, and the second time around you might get it. Here is your text:
Romans 7:9 KJV (9)Â For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
1. The first thing to say is that Paul was never 'without the law' in his entire life, so you cannot take the verse literally and say that he was once without law. I proved this by posting his testimony in Philippians 3:3-9, where he claims that all his life he kept the law as a good Jew and especially as a good Pharisee.
2. Therefore (and don't forget his thoughts changed upon conversion) his assertation that he was alive without the law once, requires interpreting according to what he meant by 'without the law'.
3. Therefore, because he was never without the law in his entire life, the meaning of the expression must be something different from the literal interpretation.
4. Therefore, by necessity, we have to say that he only 'thought' he was spiritually alive, as many today do.
The only Russians to be trusted are those Christians who are willing to be baptised after conversion by immersion in icy cold waters of the local river. If the Scots think they are hardy, check the YouTube videos of Russians breaking a hole in the ice with a pickaxe so that they could baptise a new convert. Didn't even shiver! Amazing!
Ha! All this effort for nothing. The Lord Jesus shall blast them at his coming, and put an end to it all, when he says, "Time, STOP!"
At that moment, the day of grace is ended, the door is shut, and there is no more opportunity to repent and believe the gospel. Now is the time, today is the day of salvation. Do not procrastinate, but seek the Lord while he may be found, call upon him while he is near, forsake your wickedness, and look to God to be merciful toward you, a sinner.
My mental health during the pandemic has been excellent, and I put it down to the fact that Fellowship has been uninterrupted, zeal and service to God has been unabated, and of course the grace of God is upon me anyway, so that I can cope with most situations.
To those who are unable to have a 'normal' church service, I can recommend joining together with as many fellow believers as you can, and have a 'biblical' church gathering, which is an assembly, at which you can be led by the head of the church, Jesus Christ, without any preplanning.
Shortly, I shall be getting ready to do just that myself, and it causes great joy and peace in my heart and mind.
Lurker wrote: You wrote: "You talk as if sin has the power to 'slay' people. It has no such power." John, Your argument is with God, not me. 1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. But in your mind, everything I argue for is heterodoxy so you are surely right to deny it regardless of what the bible says. That's your choice. Take care.
Lurker, do you wish to continue? I am happy to do so, if that is what you want.
I am wondering what you imagine 'sin' to be, that it has such power to inflict death on all who commit it. It sounds to me like you are leaving God out of the equation.
It is like saying, "Well, this morning I broke the law by speeding, and now I expect that by some sort of magic, that act of lawbreaking will somehow, known only to itself, inflict upon me some sort of vengeance."
Lurker, sin is trangression of the law, and the law-giver is the one who punishes he who breaks the law.
If God had given Adam no law, he would still be alive today. Does that help any?
Let us continue. I would love to see you become orthodox.
Lurker wrote: John, You say sin has no such power to slay which only leaves the law to slay. But Paul said "God forbid". So I'd suggest you make a decision of who/what you are going to believe...... your fallible reasoning or the infallible scripture.
Lurker, you are well on the way to proclaiming that blood has the power to speak, when we both know full well it is incapable of doing so, because of its very nature.
And I agree, it is a good time to cease the attempt to have a sensible discussion on this subject. Your heterodoxy makes that virtually impossible.
Other scripture helps to grasp this, Lurker. See Paul's testimony. When was he ever 'without law'?
5 I was circumcised when I was eight days old. I am a pure-blooded citizen of Israel and a member of the tribe of Benjaminâ€”a real Hebrew if there ever was one! I was a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law. I was so zealous that I harshly persecuted the church. And as for righteousness, I obeyed the law without fault.
I once thought these things were valuable, but now I consider them worthless because of what Christ has done. Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the infinite value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I could gain Christ and become one with him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ. For Godâ€™s way of making us right with himself depends on faith. I want to know Christ and experience the mighty power that raised him from the dead. I want to suffer with him, sharing in his death, so that one way or another I will experience the resurrection from the dead! Phil 3:5-11 NLT
Frank wrote: Yes brother John, persecution can certainly cause the wheat to be separated from the tares. I canâ€™t imagine anyone wanting to be persecuted, but if it happens those that are should praise the Lord. Matthew 10:34. "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35. "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; 36. and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD. 37. "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. Matthew 5:10 â€śBlessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 â€śBlessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12 â€śRejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Thank for refreshing my heart, bro. So many professing believers call Jesus a liar and will not have his teaching; but he is the way, the truth and the life.
Lurker wrote: 1. That said, you seem to be settled with an interpretation that says Paul *thought* he was alive before the commandment came but was actually dead in sin. So let's look at some context.
2. What I read is without the law sin was dead. When the commandment came sin awakened and that very same sin slew him. How could that be if he was already dead in sin?
1. Of course he was dead in sin. He taught the Ephesian believers that they were all dead in trespasses and sins and children of wrath (under God's wrath) like everyone else.
2a. According to God, so long as there is a law set by God, even if it is unknown, the breaking of it will incur the death of the sinner by the hand of God. You talk as if sin has the power to 'slay' people. It has no such power.
2b. The Fall was all your fault, Lurker. You need to realise this, because it will influence your take on original sin. It will also help you to understand why babies sin against God, and why you were born dead. Currently, you baulk at your inheritance in Adam, and refuse him as your federal head, the representative of the human race. But there is no alternative; that is how it is. And God will not change.
I occasionally watch 'the news', and I expect they will come out with more figures which describe how the vaccine is affecting the number of cases and deaths. There is no need to speculate, just wait and see.
cv wrote: JohnUK, u asked in another post how the US politics affects u? Maybe it doesn't.
CV, there is nothing I can do about US politics, and there is nothing I can do about UK politics. I have scriptural warrant to pray for the appointed guv, so that believers may live quietly and peacefully in the land, but apart from that, I see no reason to waste any more time on governments, as I have things to do for the Lord, as found in the great commission, plus running the race, plus adding to my faith a whole lot of things. cf. 2 Peter 1:5-8