Lurker wrote:
Here's something else to think about...
Jer 4:23-26
I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Sound similar to Gen 1:2?
The timeline of Jeremiah's prophecy was circa 586 BCE when God finally booted Judah from their inheritance into Babylonian captivity.

John Yurich USA wrote:
Even if I were to attend an Evangelical Protestant Church I would not engage in verbal communication with the minister or anybody else, I would not pay attention to the sermon and I would not be involved in any church activities.

Observer wrote:
1) No need to get upset DJC49.
2) Often asking a question is a good way of finding out what is being aimed at. No?

John 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

3) This would indicate that it was in eternity. Agreed?

The phrase: "before the foundation of the world" is found in 3 places in Scripture: John 17:24; Eph 1:4; and 1Pet 1:20

These verses all point to an eternal state prior to the existence of space, matter, and TIME. It is the eternal state in which God, the "I AM" has His being. The eternal NOW. No clock. No calendar.

This eternal state is extremely difficult (if not impossible) to talk about since it is so foreign to our human experience and thinking. We are creatures captured in TIME and as such, our language concerning it is weak and insufficient. IMHO, this is why you had such a time of it with "deeper" who was trying to communicate something concerning this "eternal state."

Now you kiss and make up with "deeper!"

DJC49 wrote:
Observer,
What does the phrase: "before the foundation of the world" mean?

Observer wrote:
What do you make of it?

social comment wrote:
That is why we are identifying them as two ethnic types ie rich and poor.

John Yurich USA wrote:
Where do you get that nonsense from that my attendance at Mass is a silent and tacit assent and agreement of the unscriptural parts to the Mass? If I refrain from stating the few unscriptural sentences, don't believe that the Mass is a sacrifice, don't pay attention to when the priest mentions the intercession of the Virgin Mary and the Saints, don't state "Amen" when I am handed the bread and the cup of wine then I am not participating in the unscriptural parts to the Mass pure and simple. That is logic.

John for JESUS wrote:
Seeing that I wasn't alive back then, I will take Paul's word on it. Yes, their faith was spoken of throughout the WHOLE WORLD. They must have obviously heard about Jesus by then, right? Or are you going to tell me that can't possibly be true because a secular historian says so?

However, I implore you (as did Peter in 2Pet 1:5) to "add to your faith virtue; and to virtue KNOWLEDGE;"

You obviously believe that Paul's meaning of the term: "WHOLE WORLD" (when he wrote in Romans 1:8) is the same meaning as you and I understand it today. For if it carries the same mean then -- in 58 A.D. when Paul wrote Romans -- as it does today for you and I, we would have to believe the absurdity of people in Outer Mongolia speaking about the faith of the Roman Christians when we KNOW that the Gospel had NO chance of yet reaching that part (and other remote parts) of the world.

It's obvious then ... Paul's term: "the WHOLE WORLD" means something other than every part of the world including the then undiscovered Americas, vast parts of Asia, Australia et al.

John Yurich USA wrote:
What kind of nonsense is this that my very presence at Mass is tacit participation in the unscriptural parts to the Mass? That is totally illogical. Nobody who is normal believes that?

John Yurich USA wrote:
I don't state unscriptural statements during the Mass like "and I ask the blessed Mary ever virgin and all the angels and Saints", "May the Lord accept this sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of his name, for our good and the good of all his church". I don't pay attention when the priest mentions the intercession of the Virgin Mary and the Saints during the Eucharistic Prayer. And when I am handed the bread and the cup of wine I don't state "Amen" because that would be acknowledging the Catholic doctrine of Transubstantiation. When I am handed the bread and the cup of wine I believe instead that it is the way the Lutheran Church teaches about Holy Communion.

John Yurich USA wrote:
Well since I refrain from participating in the unscriptural parts to the Mass ...

John UK wrote:
“Christ Jesus whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood”
Romans 3:25.
If there are any who would like to have their heart warmed by a short study, and gain a better understanding of propitiation, and increase their love for Christ, and have more confidence in the power of the gospel to save souls, and feel more secure in their faith in Christ; or if there are any who are not resting in Christ alone for their propitiation and are therefore not yet saved, I commend this short sermon on the subject, preached by CH Spurgeon, which is in pdf format. I doubt that anyone hearing or reading this sermon would estimate that the propitiation was of a limited kind. Christ is a dear Saviour for all who will come to HIM, not to a mathematical formula or creed. Christ alone saves, and if he does not save you, you will perish.
[snip]
[URL=http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols7-9/chs373.pdf]]]Christ Set Forth As A Propitiation[/URL]

Michael Hranek wrote:
Jim Lincoln
If Jesus practised the economics of liberals the parable of the talents would be more like:
the master entrusted
5 to one very hard worker
2 to another a hard worker of lesser ability
1 to a third an out and out lazy dead beat
one with 5 worked hard and earned 5 more
the otherr with 2 likewise earned 2 more
the third still had just the one
and the liberal master (code word for tyrannt in this story) was enraged at the economic inequality of the pitiful 3rd steward so he demanded
that
from the first 5 be taken away by force
1 redistributed to the second with 4
and 4 redistributed to the third with 1
and the liberal master (self-righteous tyrannt) congradulated himself on how wonderful he was to ensure all his subjects now had the same.

John for JESUS wrote:
1) Good point. I usually try to pay attention to whom the scripture is being written too. I was looking at it with more of an individual meaning.
2) John included both Jew and Gentile, believers and unbelievers, the whole world.
3) Jesus is the propitiation for the whole world.
4) They will be condemned if they haven't trusted in Jesus, who is the propitiation for their sins.

Do you have the same problem with "whole world" that is found in Rom 1:8?

"First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the WHOLE WORLD."

Skylight wrote:
The whole elect deal, Christ did die for the whole world. He wants the whole world to be saved, that is the Fathers will right? The blood of Christ is mighty enough to save everyone in the whole world BUT THE WORLD MUST ACCEPT WHAT CHRIST HAS DONE FOR THEM FIRST. [!]

John for JESUS wrote:
Yes, all unsaved.

Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, not just believers. Why will some be sentenced to Hell? As a result of them not believing in Jesus, who is the propitiation for their sins.

Now I ask you, did this propitiation apply to those who never ever even heard the Gospel? The American indians, the Incans of South America, those in China, etc., of the 1st century (and beyond) who would never hear the Gospel and therefore have absolutely NO opportunity to believe the Gospel? How can they be condemned then if they TOO were propitiated for?

CAB wrote:
When Paul lived there wasn't a Jewish nation.

Acts 10:22
"And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the NATION OF THE JEWS, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee."

Said Paul in Acts 26:4
"My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among MINE OWN NATION AT JERUSALEM, know all the Jews;

Paul, again in Gal 1:14
"And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals IN MINE OWN NATION, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers."

No Jewish nation when Paul lived?
Then what's Paul blabbering about? Is he LYING about the exitence of a Jewish NATION in his own day? I think not!

penny wrote:
DJC49,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosul%E2%80%93Haifa_oil_pipeline
if you want to outwit others, you must be informed first.
its about resources and currency. its not just US-Saudi-Israel looking at these resources. its much bigger than that. those who have the resources will have the markets. business is dirty.

I will have you know that I read that very same Wikipedia page BEFORE I ever posting ANYTHING about an Iraqi-Israeli oil pipeline!

CAB's tacit assertion was that the Mosul/Haifa pipeline was a going concern, i.e., still operational.

However, from that Wiki article it reads:
"In 1948, with the outbreak of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, the official operation of the pipeline ended when the Iraqi Government refused to pump any more oil through it."

Michael B wrote:
Ahhh, more anti-Semitism on SermonAudio. No wonder an unbelieving world excuses us Christians as buck-tooth, redneck morons…

CAB wrote:
You called me names for saying Stephen was cannibalized, so I produced the scripture. Not one word back of apology.