John UK wrote:
Are you seriously telling me that when you were saved you were not ready for the incredible change of life that God would bring to pass in your life?

At what point do you have spiritual discernment???

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

So WHEN is the elect person quote "ready" eoq.

OR
Does God get a little involved with our being made "ready"???

John UK wrote:
I believe we have to be clear with people that there is going to be a turning here. God's the one that is going to change your life. God is the one that is going to give you power. But there's going to be a change, and if you're not ready for that, you cannot be saved. I believe that's what repentance is.

The problem here with Cloud's statement are the words, quote, "and if you're not ready for that you cannot be saved."

First this denies that God has the power ALONE to save the sinner in his dead in sin/enmity estate.

Second the way that Cloud has worded this puts the onus upon the sinner to quote "be ready" ??? Now how does the sinner dead in his sins become ready by his own ability???

This is pure UNadulterated Arminian-Popish salvation by works.

Cloud's belief apparently is that without the mortals cooperation or help - GOD cannot save!!!
Thus if the person is called - it won't work unless "he is ready"???
Thus if the person is elected - it won't work unless "he is ready"???

Why bother calling/electing if the mortal can "ready" themselves for salvation???

In truth this being the case NO ONE will be saved!!!

Banned wrote:
They crucified their messiah, and have worn skullcaps ever since in celebration of that deed.

It was just as evil and wrong back then as it is today.

No Original Sin Passed On wrote:
Romans 5:12 elaborates itself. Sin passed upon all men FOR THAT all men have sinned.

I assume what you seek to establish is that man "becomes" a sinner - BY sinning?

My position is that - man sins BECAUSE he is a sinner, born and bred.

No Original Sin Passed On wrote:
you have a long way to go to substantiate your averments. Your ideas of the flesh are wanting.

I can see that for many centuries the Christian Church has Taught and preached the Doctrine of Original Sin.

I can see it expounded in many sermons by great and erudite teachers and ministers, for centuries.

The Doctrine is Biblically correct and I believe the Holy Spirit confirms that.

WCF. They (Adam/Eve) being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed,[a] and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.[b]

[a] Gen 1:27-28 and 2:16-17 and Acts 17:26 with Rom 5:12, 15-19 and 1 Cor 15:21-22; 1Cor 15:45, 49.
[b] Gen 5:3; Job 14:4; 15:14; Psa 51:5.

No Original Sin Passed On wrote:
One cannot inherit depravity. That's anserine. What? Has moral depravity become genetic? Homosexuals love to say yes. Sacred scriptures assures us otherwise.

Moral depravity and homosexual practice rape murder etc etc are all the children of SIN.
ONE term ONE title covers all mans evil estate.

SIN is genetic.
SIN'S' are the product of the flesh.

We are all conceived in sin as God taught through David in Psalm 51.

The proclivity to sin is built into your flesh, if you like your DNA.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

No Orignal Sin Passed On wrote:
There is no such thing as original sin other than the history of original sin.

It is a corruption of all nature - an inherited depravity which even infects small infants in their mother's womb, and the root which produces in man every sort of sin. It is therefore so vile and enormous in God's sight that it is enough to condemn the human race, and it is not abolished or wholly uprooted even by baptism, seeing that sin constantly boils forth as though from a contaminated spring.

Nevertheless, it is not imputed to God's children for their condemnation but is forgiven by his grace and mercy - not to put them to sleep but so that the awareness of this corruption might often make believers groan as they long to be set free from the "body of this death.""

John UK wrote:
tulipwasspurgeon
Excellent! Just what I said!

Even when we show you John, that Spurgeon was a 5 point Calvinist, all the way, you still try to wriggle out of the truth.

If the Atonement does have a direct effect only upon those chosen by GOD - Then obviously GOD limits it to that number only.
The ONLY applied "Limitation" can come from GOD.

The english terminology of TULIP is Biblically correct.

John UK wrote:
And tulips are lovely, to be sure. Mr Spurgeon had some, but he called his tuprips. It never caught on, though, probably because it didn't sound as nice. And then there's tuppips, which are the same as Spurgeon's,

______________

In one of his recorded prayers Spurgeon said......
"Thou hast measured and computed the iniquity of man, for thou hast laid it on the Well-Beloved, and we know thou hast not laid upon Him more than is meet." ("Spurgeons Prayers." Christian Focus Publications. p67)

B] If you then ask what about the Christian?

C] Then [A] remains true.
But the Christians sins are paid for.
And within the Christian is the Holy Spirit working contrary to the domain of sin, the flesh.
Jesus came to save sinners and no one else.

The teaching of Total Depravity is the best, most accurate and stongest approach to mans sinful condition and the power of sin.
Other methods compromise with sin and thus fall into its trap.

Psalm 106:39 Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.

Psalm 73:11 And they say, How doth God know? and is there knowledge in the most High? 12 Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is ABOMINATION.

24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:

And if you don't keep the statutes then.....

John UK wrote:
you'll also find that he poo poo's the whole idea of a limited atonement, calling the atonement of infinite worth, yet wisely explaining the particular purpose.

[URL=http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:VV6ubeFk99oJ:www.spurgeongems.org/tulip-3.pdf+C+H+Spurgeon+Limited+Atonement&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=uk]]]Limited Atonement by CH Spurgeon.[/URL]

If society is going to teach them that evil is good them what can they expect?

But it is not new....

John UK wrote:
A Reformed church: holds to the KJV: metrical psalms: engages in open-air preaching: and refuses the title 'Calvinist', saying that all who call them such, do so at their peril.

"The late lamented Mr. Denham has put, at the foot of his portrait, a most admirable text, "Salvation is of the Lord." That is just an epitome of Calvinism; it is the sum and substance of it. If anyone should ask me what I mean by a Calvinist, I should reply, "He is one who says, Salvation is of the Lord." I cannot find in Scripture any other doctrine than this. It is the essence of the Bible. "He only is my rock and my salvation." Tell me anything contrary to this truth, and it will be a heresy; tell me a heresy, and I shall find its essence here, that it has departed from this great, this fundamental, this rock-truth, "God is my rock and my salvation.""
= C H Spurgeon at.....

If the European Union doesn't work (and it doesn't) then Brown's global society won't either.

Answer

If there was another alternative to salvation GOD would not have sent His SON Jesus to die upon a cross.

The problem with this emotive ideological perspective is this.......

Jesus taught...

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

And the Lord's words again to the *CHURCH* at Laodicea.....

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

So

pedro wrote:
I too believe that the death penalty should be treated as a punishment for crime and also a deterrent to crime as the study has proven.

To deter someone from crime/murder usually requires a logical thought prior to the event. The anticipation of punishment is very seldom a contributing factor. {A} Because of the reason, motive and emotions of the moment. and {B} (if I may add a little Biblical fact) - Because of sin dominion in the individual involved.

The "anticipation" of hell doesn't prevail on sinners to mend their ways and turn to God, does it?
Therefore this punishment is NOT a deterrent to mortals anywhere at anytime.