I hate when this happens but you say something like “there is no condemnation” (Romans 5:1) then when I go look at the verse, it is talking about something totally different. The problem with your theory of penal substitution is that it is unbiblical. If that is how God did things I am sure he would have said so. Instead He says:

“The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:20‬

That means Jesus isn’t guilty or responsible for what you have done. Now as one example look at this:

“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:1‬

You could of clarified a lot sooner. If that is what you believe than why on earth would you even feel the need to pretend Jesus suffered eternal death for you and who knows how many others? Believing that while knowing He arose again just three days later instead? It’s craziness and nonsensical, not to mention unbiblical. Maybe according to some hymns, but so what?

You could of clarified a lot sooner. If that is what you believe than why on earth would you even feel the need to pretend Jesus suffered eternal death for you and who knows how many others? Believing that while knowing He arose again just three days later instead? It’s craziness and nonsensical, not to mention unbiblical. Maybe according to some hymns, but so what?

I won’t suffer for my sins because I am clothed with the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

“After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

...“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:9, 14‬

Now let’s look at what you want to be clothed with.

“But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭64:6‬

Your own filthy rags! If you are depending on Jesus having somehow suffered the penalty for your individual sins to save you, that still would not make you righteous. It would just mean someone else was unjustly punished for you. You would still be guilty if that was the case.

You guys need to stop getting your theology from hymns!

pennned...

I agree with what you say about Jesus paid the penalty for our sin in dying physically.

“And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27-28‬

God doesn’t operate in that fashion.

“The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:20‬

That wasn’t a good response because the wrath talked about was temporary as opposed to eternal, not toward believers, and nothing about Jesus. As I mentioned before, Jesus died to include us in His death and have our sins forgiven. Not to pay the penalty for each of our individual sins. How would that have brought reconciliation? We would still be guilty while Jesus would have took the punishment for our sins unjustly because Jesus wasn’t guilty!

“For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:5‬ ‭

We who believe were united into His death, if He is resurrected so will we be, but that also means if He received the outpouring of God’s wrath on Him, so will we. Isn’t going to happen because He did not!

“For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
‭‭II Corinthians‬ ‭5:21‬

I didn’t miss that you said there is a future wrath. I also believe that. The problem is there is no evidence that Jesus received wrath in some penal substitutionary way.

“For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;”
‭‭II Corinthians‬ ‭5:14‬

The death of Jesus wasn’t such that we no longer suffer death because He died in our place as a penal substitute. Jesus actually died to include us into His death! Salvation is all about Jesus and what He is. It wasn’t Him paying off our sins through punishment, it was Him having our sins erased. The cross wasn’t about God’s wrath, but rather His Love and mercy.

“And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.”
‭‭I John‬ ‭3:5‬

“In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:7‬

If pretending you had any legitimate answers in the past and evading the questions now makes you able to sleep at night, then okay fine.

Unprofitable Ssrvant...

I’m talking about the future day of God’s wrath.

“For the wicked are reserved for the day of doom; They shall be brought out on the day of wrath.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭21:30‬

“But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5‬

“For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6:17‬

I asked you to show proof that Jesus paid off all of your individual sins at the cross as if to suffer the eternal death you deserve. You cannot! I have showed you that God’s wrath is still future and hasn’t happened yet and that payment for crimes committed doesn’t erase the fact that those crimes were committed. Therefore, you would remain guilty of them and still in need of a righteousness not your own.

Adriel...

I don’t remember, can you give them again?

Even Jesus said He didn’t come to judge the world but that the world through Him might be saved. Jesus is God! You have God judging the world in Jesus by pouring out His wrath on Him, but Jesus didn’t come for that.

“For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:10‬

“and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭3:9‬

Salvation is of the Lord. However, we are saved by faith.

“knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭2:16‬

Faith therefore is not a work and those who put their trust in Christ are not performing a work which merits salvation from God.

“through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:2‬

There isn’t even access to the grace which saves apart from first believing.

“And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭16:30-31

Another thing:

“And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: “My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.” If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:5-8‬

Then it should be easy for those broadcasters to demonstrate that baptism is just an ordinance like the Lord’s Supper ( Do this in remembrance of me.). Baptism is in fact far greater than an ordinance. Scripture doesn’t say, repent and partake of the Lord’s Supper for the remission of your sins. It does about baptism.

Unprofitable Servant...

That was Jesus dying on the cross, but not any wrath poured out on Jesus by God the Father.

“For the wicked are reserved for the day of doom; They shall be brought out on the day of wrath.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭21:30‬