In prior times, churches had a mourner's bench where the seekers knelt, prayed, and wept because their evil transgressions against a holy God. They prayed, mourned, and wept until they felt the cleansing, healing, forgiving power of God sweep over their being and consequently they arose from the altar transformed with newness of life.

Thus the process of overcoming had a beginning in their lives and from there they sought to walk in uprightness, living a life pleasing to their Maker.

Today the churches have removed the mourner's bench—"converts" say a short prayer'—and go away living as they have always lived, doing the things that they have always done, claiming the imputed righteousness of Christ, with no sense of guilt because they are taught that guilt is from the devil and they are judicially freed from sin—not in reality, but ascribed by the justice of God to make them (filthy sinners) worthy of His grace.

Your Post
"What do your questions have to do with my response to your statement of “The Calvinists have a very easy religion—just believe what the Reformers wrote—and you are on your way to heaven, with no effort, no works, no repentance. “ I posted two quotes one by Luther and one by Calvin that show they did not teach by their writings that you are on your way to heaven, with no effort, no works, no repentance.
You made a false accusation"
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What false accusation did I make?

You say you posted quotes by Luther and Calvin that show they did not teach no effort, no works, no repentance.

My questions were why do you not believe their writings then? Why are you fighting against the Scriptures that conform us to the Image of Christ—which require works, repentance, and effort.

Your Post
"Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;"
1 Timothy 4:1-2"
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Actually, I have not read much of what the Reformers wrote—I have only read the interpretations of what they wrote on these threads.

However, I have looked up what some of them had to say about Scriptures which contain admonition for holy living and they explain away the meaning of those Scriptures that, if believed, would cause drastic change in our lives and separate us from the world and the worldly order and conform us to obedience of the words of Jesus Christ and to the image of Jesus Christ.

Your Post
"The righteousness of Christ is not a cloak to cover unconfessed and unforsaken sin; it is a principle of life that transforms the character and controls the conduct."

“Although we may distinguish [justification and sanctification], Christ contains both of them inseparably in himself. [. . . T]hus [. . .] we are justified not without works yet not through works, since in our sharing in Christ which justifies us, sanctification is just as much included as righteousness.”
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Why are you fighting against the Scriptures I have used to show the high degree of separation from sin that must be adhered to by the Saints?

Why do you eradicate the parts of the Bible that produce change in our lives and conform us into the Image of Jesus Christ our Lord?

Why do you not believe that the gifts of the Spirit are available to the Church today as much as they were in the first century?

The New Covenant that God gave through Jesus Chirst is--the one-time sacrifice for sins was offered by Jesus Christ with His atoning blood and consequently the indwelling Holy Ghost that would conform us to His image—He being the firstborn among many brethren.

Your Post
"She is one of the more misleading and carefully worded posters on the site with an intention to indoctrinate people in the pentecostal, independent, arminian and holiness movement that has flooded the world churches."
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I don't know of any modern Pentecostal churches that preach and teach the truth of the Word of God. If I did, I would be canvassing the streets for attendees to that church.

The churches of our day fit the Laodiacean Church in Revelation and need to repent or they will be cast into hell.

Because I use Scripture to verify that we are to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ our Lord and to walk in holiness according to the Scriptures, my name is cast out as evil.

Everyone uses Scripture texts to back their words. The way I use them is no different. You are putting up a smokescreen—intended meaning, or literal sense, of the texts.

The Calvinists have a very easy religion—just believe what the Reformers wrote—and you are on your way to heaven, with no effort, no works, no repentance. That would be very enticing if it were true. But that is not what Jesus Christ taught.

Michael Hranek wrote:
Let's see....
Mormons have a different god who was once a man and through 'good works' to his god became a god. Therefor a false god
The Mormon Jesus is the spirit brother of Satan. Therefore a false jesus
The Mormons when there is a conflict or contradiction between their books, The Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, Journal of Discourses (if I remember correctly here) will reject what the True and Living God says in the Bible and hold to their books. Therefore a false faith
Mormonism teaches that a man through 'good works' to the god of Mormonism can become a god himself. Therefore a false and accursed gospel
They might call themselves Christians but I have to think it is simply an abomination for any born again child of God to call them that.

albert wrote:
"If any man among you seem to be religious,and bridleth not his tongue,but decieveth his own heart,this mans religion is vain"James 1-26.
But Hey
Thats Why "ye must be born again"

Your Post
"You are generalizing here. How do you know all Protestant churches are apostate? Have you been to all of them? Or is just the ones that don't accept your particular interpretation of the Bible that makes them apostate?
You reject the truths brought out in the Reformation and taught by the most learned theologians and Bible commentators. "
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I know what the churches are teaching. I know what you teach and believe, just as you know what I believe.

I believe the Lord Jesus Christ before I believe men. If the most learned theologians and Bible commentators are not filled with the Spirit, their words are from their carnal mind. Nowhere in the Word of God did He command education as a criterion for understanding His Word. Without the infilling of the Holy Ghost, the Word of God is a closed book. The disciples and writers of the NT, with the exception of Paul, were unlearned men.

1Co l-27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; (1Co 1:27)

1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to naught things that are:

Your Post
"You also wrote, "He does not command acts that we are not able to perform."
Yes He does! God commands sinners to keep His law perfectly in thought, word, and deed but we can’t! That is why Christ came, to perfectly obey the law and to shed His blood to save His people from their sins.
The Lord commands in Eze 18:31 make you a new heart — "This shows, not what men can do, but what they ought to do: what God requires of us. God alone can make us a new heart (Eze_11:19; Eze_36:26, Eze_36:27). The command to do what men cannot themselves do is designed to drive them ... to feel their own helplessness, and to seek God’s Holy Spirit (Psa_51:11, Psa_51:12)."
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Of course we are helpless—only by the infilling and indwelling of the Holy Ghost are we able to perform that which is required of us. The Spirit leads and guides in all truth and as we follow the leading of the Spirit, we overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil.

The infilling of the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Christ in us, the hope of glory. Without it, we have no hope. We quench the Spirit or grieve the Spirit by disobedience.

Your Post
"Abigail, READ THE POST! I said they are not to be used as the foundatrional books. I did not say they were irrelavant nor that they could not be used to support what we find in the epistles. Read what is written, not what you want it to say!"
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Your Post 10/10/07 10:13PM
Abigail, I never said that the gospels nor Acts could not be used for doctrinal purposes. I stated that they were historical books, yes; but I will also make it clear that they are not to be used as the foundational books for a doctrine. Why? Because they are historical. We build our doctrine from the epistles because they are for the purpose of teaching. The events of the historical books can be used to support those truths, but should not be used as the basis for a doctrine.
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I see no difference in saying Jesus' words should not be used as the basis for doctrine and saying they have no value. They are used for support but they are secondary, and if Paul did not repeat Jesus' words, those words are irrelevant. Either way, Jesus' words are ignored. Paul is the great teacher—not Jesus Christ.

Paul was a follower of Jesus Christ and used Jesus' words as a foundation for his epistles.

He said, "Follow me, as I follow Christ."

Your Post
"Abigail, you continue to put forth falsehoods, and you should be ashamed. Now you are lying about what I said about the words of Christ. I never said they were ONLY historical. You need to find a different way to defend your positions than lying and slandering people."
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Your Post 10/10/07 10:13PM
Abigail, I never said that the gospels nor Acts could not be used for doctrinal purposes. I stated that they were historical books, yes; but I will also make it clear that they are not to be used as the foundational books for a doctrine. Why? Because they are historical. We build our doctrine from the epistles because they are for the purpose of teaching. The events of the historical books can be used to support those truths, but should not be used as the basis for a doctrine.
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I understood you to say that the Gospels and Acts are historical and are not to be used for doctrine.

Your Post
It is true that a christian's faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross is demonstrated to the world by works, but it is only God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ that saves a sinner.
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The confusion is—what is faith in Jesus Christ.

You do not have faith in me because you do not believe the words I speak.

You do not have faith in Christ if you do not believe the words He spoke.

If you have faith in Him, you will believe the words He spoke, and you will obey Him. In modern churches, the words of Jesus Christ are relegated to utter babble—meaningless, worthless.

He was GOD in the flesh. How can people refuse to believe Him? He is the chief cornerstone that the builders have rejected. He is the perfect GOD-MAN that lived and died for our transgressions and showed us how we can inherit eternal life. How precious is our wonderful Savior!!

Your Post
Heb 12:17) and.... 2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth“
Do you still believe that repentance is a free will act of humanity even though the Scriptures declare that it is given by God?
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We are God's creation. All things are of Him and through Him and by Him in Christ Jesus our Lord. Of course, He grants us repentance, but that by no means is to be understood that we must not repent of our own free will. His strength is made perfect in our weakness. He has commanded men everywhere to repent. He does not command acts that we are not able to perform.

God is glorified when humanity turns from the world, the flesh, and the devil—of our own free will. He draws us by His Spirit and we respond by repenting and turning from our ways to His ways.

God having given humanity free will in no way diminishes His power and sovereignty.

Your Post
You judge that many on here do not strive to obey God and that only you and others like you do. How do you know this as you do not know the lives of those you speak against?
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By the words they speak. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Your Post
"It would appear that in your religion - faith is NOT an absolute trust in God.
Salvation is of God.
You have reduced God and his divine purpose to human-sinners level. Why? Only to pander to your carnal vanity and serve Satan."
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My faith is in God—that is the reason I obey Him. He is what He said He is and He will do what He said He will do. All who disobey Him will be cast into hell. We choose our path daily and walk according to the lusts of the flesh or according to the Spirit of God.

Sin is transgression of His laws—not obedience to His laws.

Jesus strengthened the law with His teachings and gave us power to overcome by the Holy Ghost. When He implanted His laws in our hearts, He gave us the will and desire to walk according to His ways and not according to our own selfish ways.

Your definition of the Gospel is only the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ preached the gospel and sealed it with His blood on the cross of Calvary. He commanded that we repent and follow Him and His atoning blood cleanses from all sin.

Pride is the seat of all sin—pride of face, pride of place, pride of race, pride of grace. Yet, you call obedience to the Word of God prideful and evil. How mixed up!!

Your Post
"You are a slanderer and a liar. I have told you repeatedly that I NEVER separate faith from works of righteousness… you have NEVER once sat under my preaching to hear what I say. I repeat, you are a slanderer and a liar. According to your works based salvation, you'd better repent or you're going to Hell, by your own admission!!!"
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I have never been to your church, but I know what you preach on this forum. Even though you won't admit it, you separate faith from works and lead people to believe they are saved without works of righteousness. Moreover, you state that we who are speaking the Word of God and commands of God are trying to earn our salvation because we are obedient to the Word of God.

You dismiss the Words of Jesus Christ as being only historical and have no value in our Christian life.

I have heard the preaching of "not of works" for years. The way it is being taught is a deception and very misleading. People think that because they have said the sinner's prayer once they are saved for all eternity and they are free to live as they desire. Their life is filled with nothing but love for self and what they can get for themselves in this materialistic world. It's a lie. We are saved if we continue in the words of Jesus Christ.

Your Post
Abigail, don't try to hide behind words that don't apply. A rebuke is not showing hatred toward someone. Notice that I didn't use that verse to hide behind when you cast your hateful remarks toward me. Face up to the issue and don't hide behind misquoted scripture!
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I am not hiding behind words, I am speaking the truth.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Disobedience results in eternal death.

Your Post
" Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. (Eccl 12:13-14)"
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When we are born of the Spirit we are new creatures in Christ Jesus. He writes His laws in our hearts and our deepest desire is to keep His commandments—and they are not grievous. Every act we commit has a motive behind it. Selfishness is the seat of sin and transgression. The indwelling Spirit removes selfishness from our hearts giving us love for others. The love that the Spirit gives is for the eternal destiny of souls.

Fearing God and keeping His commandments is what the whole New Testament is about—the indwelling Spirit leading and guiding in all truth.

Your Post
"Abigail, "You are teaching heresy!! Shame on you!!Another apostate leading his congregation in unrighteousness under the guise of salvation.
Faith and works of righteousness cannot be separated."
You are a slanderer and a liar. I have told you repeatedly that I NEVER separate faith from works of righteousness. The difference is the source. You find them in yourself, I find them in Christ. You owe an apology to every doctrines of grace individual on here for continuously misrepresenting our position for arguments sake. You also owe me an apology for throwing accusations and slandering me when you have NEVER once sat under my preaching to hear what I say. I repeat, you are a slanderer and a liar. According to your works based salvation, you'd better repent or you're going to Hell, by your own admission!!!"
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Jesus said the world hates Him because He testifies that the deeds thereof are evil. Moreover, He said, if they hear Him, they will hear us, if they hate Him, they will hate us also—there is no in between—it is love or hate. Disobedience to His words is to hate Him.

Furthermore, He said if we love Him we will obey His words. To be like Him is to obey Him, even as He obeyed the Father.

Your post
It's sad to see you writing "Loss of Salvation" posts, when the Biblical fact is that the TRUE Christian Elect cannot and will not loose their salvation. This is part of the Promise and Covenant of God. True Faith is Trust in God - NOT trust in human ability to get there.
With your penchant for salvation by works, I can see that your reliance is upon human effort whether to come to Christ, - or indeed to loose your salvation(Christ). I can only conclude that you are not saved. Sorry!!"
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To come to your conclusion, you must ignore most of the Scripture.

Trust in God is to believe and act on His Word—not merely a mental concept of God.

Calvinism is a false gospel and produces pseudo-Christians. You are wresting Paul's writings and noted in II Peter. Paul is the one that gave many of the instructions I posted. He was not a double-minded fool.

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Your Post
"So you are saying without obedience, no man shall see the Lord, right?
The Apostles say if even one point of the whole law is broken, one is guilty of the entire law(James 2:10). Does this not apply also to Abigail's list? So if one fails just once, what happens? Is Christ by faith sufficient for forgiveness or is this forever held against the person and heaven is only a dream while hell is the eternal reality? Some things to think about."
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Read the messages to the Churches in the Revelations. Repent is the message. When we fail, we must repent and seek faith and strength to grow stronger in the Lord that we might fulfill the Great Commission and the Commandments of loving the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength and loving our neighbor as ourselves—which is what all Scripture is teaching.

The list shows where our heart and love is. Where a person's treasure is, there is his heart also.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.