John UK wrote:
Apercu
Jesus indeed said:
"He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that HATETH his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father HONOUR.
(John 12:25-26 KJV)
Would you care to explain the two capitalised words, in their context, and show what you actually mean, lest there be misunderstanding?

Mike wrote:
Oh dear, Apercu. It's almost as if you don't know a clenched fist can never receive a gift, even a free one.
Proverbs 4:10
"Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings; and the years of thy life shall be many."
More years that should be hated, I suppose?

Michael Hranek wrote:
Seems the anyone(s) who would hate this new life in Christ and begrudge people of the joy of their salvation would have to be called what they are...devils.

BTW Once you become a Christian don't you experience the wonderful desire to be with Christ, - as opposed to being on earth?
I believe what Christ is teaching here is that HE is more important than a worldly existance. You know I think HE is correct. And remember HE was teaching HIS disciples.

Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; WHICH IS FAR BETTER.

Michael Hranek wrote:
What is the matter isn't faith in Jesus Christ sufficient for you?

Mike NY
you wrote, "He gave me life. Why should I hate it?"
Amen Brother

Then you give the poor Calvinists a hard time just because we give all the glory to God, and don't try to steal a piece of the action, like you free willers.

Michael, we don't mind if you want to work your own salvation. Many people in history have tried mans way to the rejection of the divine plan.

But you should leave the elect to allow God to work out His plan for salvation, without any cooperation of the sinner whatsoever. This after all is what the Bible teaches, and we do prefer the Bible way.

BTW It was Jesus who said
"he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal."
At John 12:25.

Don't you want to accept Jesus teaching?

Mike wrote:
He gave me life. Why should I hate it?

All else is sin.
"And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

Hate your life and follow Jesus.

24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour."

John UK wrote:
Have you nothing more to say about double predestination of the positive-negative sort?
Or are you really and truly and genuinely one of the +ve +ve breed?
Never! Well I never expected to meet one here on a Reformed website. How long have you been 'Reformed'? A year, maybe two? I'm only guessing here, you'll have to excuse me if I'm out by a few months.

"This doctrine [justification by faith] is the head and the cornerstone. It alone begets, nourishes, builds, preserves, and defends the church of God; and without it the church of God cannot exist for one hour…. For no one who does not hold this article – or, to use Paul's expression, this 'sound doctrine' (Titus 2:1) – is able to teach aright in the church or successfully to resist any adversary . . . this is the heel of the Seed that opposes the old serpent and crushes its head. That is why Satan, in turn, cannot but persecute it." (Martin Luther)

"Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

John UK wrote:
As for needing a book on justification by faith

#1] Man invents.

#2] God ordained.

If the sinner has the "free will" to choose then he picks #1.

If God ordained that the sinner will be saved, - Then he really doesn't need to choose.

John UK wrote:
Ah yes, Roger. Now we come to it. "Their OWN doctrine.
Not the BIBLICAL doctrine.

Your actual stereotypical conviction of the Arminian!

It's not the "L" of TULIP you can't receive today John. It's the "T"

You cannot perceive that the extreme extent of sin in the human condition is Total Depravity.

God had to send His only beloved Son to die on the cross for the Elect to remove them from the horrendous wretched estate they are in.
And you John suggest that it is not so bad after all?

The Elect are being saved **OUT OF** the wretched estate of iniquity which they are conceived into. That which is left God sends to hell. And God is sovereign, omnipotent and omniscient.

John UK wrote:
here is the definition of reprobation:
2. Christianity. condemnation to eternal punishment in hell; rejection by God.

John what you need is a good book on Justification = Here is one on line =
[URL=http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/buchanan_justification.pdf]]]JUSTIFICATION By James Buchanan[/URL]

Remember if the sinner does not perceive how bad and guilty he is - THEN he does not seek a saviour.

John UK wrote:
Sure they did, Roger, because none of them believed the nonelect were predestinated unto damnation.

The reason for the crucifiction of God's only beloved Son Jesus was because the price for justification before God, is that of the supreme sacrifice in all creation is absolutely necessary for the salvation of but a few sinners.

Behind that sacrifice by God and His Son, is the blackest, most foul, malevolent, anathema the cesspool of the sinful human race.
That "view" is what the pure eyes of God perceives.

And you would have God demonstrate doubts about the justice of these evil hearted sinners?
Do you want to advise God that there may be a tinge of righteousness in the unsaved?

Rom 9:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one"

No John, There is/was NOT ONE mortal ever who is/was worthy of being saved!
There is/was NOT ONE mortal ever who is/was worthy of forgiveness.

Reprobation is easy, just and righteous.

John UK wrote:
And so that you know that there is no hard feelings betwixt us, may I wish you a great and contented year, both you and yours.

Mike wrote:
Even though a trick question, Apercu, how can that which they never had, be lost? Can you lose a dog if all you ever owned was a cat?

John UK wrote:
Here's my turnip answers:
#1 Yes
#2 Before the world was made
#3 No
#4 none
#5 No
Now:
What am I?

What am I to do with you???

No. [5] Can the called lose their salvation?

Answer = Many are called - But few are chosen.............................

So the "called" can lose their salvation.

Does this mean you have failed the test???

I tell you what
Since it was a trick question
I'll let you off.

JohnUK wrote:
about my doctrinal position, ask me five direct questions, and I will give you five direct answers, and then you can tell me what you think I am.

John UK wrote:
Apercu
I perceive you imagine I have a problem with Calvinism. Wherefrom hast thou this?

Literally translated = cause without which - the event - could not have occurred.

Similar to the "but for test" that is found in articles on causation in criminal law. "But for" the action of D would the consequences have occurred? If the answer is "No" then there is no factual causation.

Also

Protestant reformer, "John Calvin" was born Jean Chauvin. So why aren't his followers called Chauvinists?

John
Said
"I don't know where you live, but in all my experience of neo-Calvinism churches, the whole idea has been poo-poo'd, and I have been regarded as fanatical. 95% of all Calvinists I know are waiting for the 'elect' to walk in their church and get converted. And that is not right!"

John UK wrote:
So, if I am wrong......what?

Bad News - The real struggle is yet to come.

Fair News - You're not one of the elect - so you don't have to worry about Calvinism anymore.

Promises....

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Ro 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

1Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

John UK wrote:
Sure they could have posted the same as me, but there are three things the nominal believers do not do:
#1 They do not believe on Christ
#2 They do not love the saints
#3 They do not improve through sanctification

I found this on one of the site's by someone or something called "ABU"

"Using various ways of expression, Paul asserts that the Spirit is given to believers. In so doing he is attempting to describe a reality that is not fully describable but must, in the end, remain a mystery. It seems that he can take it for granted that his readers already have a experiential understanding of this. Because of the giving of the Spirit indwelling, there exists a spiritual union between Christ and the believer."
"For Paul, those who are declared righteous by faith are also those on whom God has bestowed his Spirit. Expressing himself in various ways, Paul asserts that the Spirit has been conferred upon all believers. In so doing he is attempting to describe a reality that is not fully describable but must, in the end, remain a mystery."(ABU)

John UK wrote:
Apercu
Eph 1:13-18 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened;,...."
The Holy Spirit is the seal of God upon all his people. The evidence is:
#1 Faith in Jesus Christ
#2 Love for all the saints
#3 Ongoing enlightenment and sanctification

John UK wrote:
Because the Spirit of Christ dwells within us, we may have a discernment we never had before becoming Christian.