so did I- you denounce straw. The "humanity of Jesus Christ is TRUE humanity" Morris' and Taylor's etc. view is also that the "humanity of Jesus Christ is TRUE humanity"
I don't find where Either Morris or Taylor etc.
called the 2nd Adam "heavenly humanity" or any other such idea,the point of ICR, christiananswers.net, etc is there is "absolutely NO connection genetically to Mary's" fallen genetics.
emphasis, stop, only on fallen...that is FLAWED, that is broken because of sin.
The Cairns presentation gives NO idea the Lord Jesus Christ would have inherited the decayed, fallen genetics of a sinner, under the curse of the fall. [URL=http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/mary-motherofjesus.html]]]-Taylor [/URL]
Where do you find in any of the cites or any others I've missed , where anyone of those you call heretics ,is speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ as having ANYTHING other than the same type of body, in his humanity, than did Adam before the fall??
DJC49 wrote: What strikes me funny about all these experts is how they claim to have the 'scientific proof' and rational explanations about the material mechanisms that are behind the GREAT MYSTERY of the Incarnation and the lesser mystery of the imputation of sin into Adam and his progeny. Products all of an unbelieving age; an age that wants scientific "proof" to EVERY mystery there is.
[URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=32902214042]]]Miracle and Mystery of the Cross- Alan Cairns[/URL]
[URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=32081059260]]]The Blood of the Lamb[/URL]
Owen and Morris and so on, have their takes, but...
Deu 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
[URL=http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/4036/Brannon-Howse/By-Ray-Comfort]]]Bill Maher movie mocks everyone who believes in God[/URL]
but the warning to Maher from Ray Comfort is interesting in this link:
"although the film is bound to be popular in the U.S., it may badly backfire on Maher. Comfort said that in 2007 he befriended the atheist who received national attention for encouraging other atheists to post videos of themselves blaspheming God. "I emailed him explaining that Muslims translate the name ‚ÄėGod‚Äô as ‚ÄėAllah,‚Äô and suggested that he rethink what he was doing. Muslims killed a number of people for merely publishing cartoons of their prophet Mohammad. I also reminded him that author Salmon Rushdie is still hiding in fear of his life for his Satanic Verses. All it would take is a report on Arab television that Americans were making videos blaspheming Allah and saying, ‚ÄėAnd I am not afraid,‚Äô to stir a response. After I sent that email, the blasphemy challenge seemed to disappear very quickly.‚ÄĚ Comfort warns that Hollywood has gotten away with mockery of Christianity, but many Muslims aren‚Äôt so tolerant. ‚ÄúHow will they react to a movie that critics describe as ‚Äėa blasphemous detonation of all things holy‚Äô?"
[URL=http://www.pvv.nl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1310&Itemid=1]]]THREAT TO EUROPE FROM ISLAM[/URL] There is a tremendous danger looming, and it is very difficult to be optimistic. We might be in the final stages of the Islamization of Europe. This not only is a clear and present danger to the future of Europe itself, it is a threat to America and the sheer survival of the West. The danger I see looming is the scenario of America as the last man standing. The United States as the last bastion of Western civilization, facing an Islamic Europe. In a generation or two, the US will ask itself: who lost Europe? Patriots from around Europe risk their lives every day to prevent precisely this scenario fRom becoming a reality.
... This is not the first time our civilization is under threat. We have seen dangers before. We have been betrayed by our elites before. They have sided with our enemies before. And yet, then, freedom prevailed.
These are not times in which to take lessons from appeasement, capitulation, giving away, giving up or giving in. These are not times in which to draw lessons from Mr. Chamberlain. These are times calling us to draw lessons from Mr. Churchill and the words he spoke in 1942:
Scholium wrote: Beware of those who insist and proclaim - "That which God cannot do."
God can do what He says in His word, by means which we might not fathom- And when He tells us the Lord Jesus Christ is related to David thru 2 different geneologies, the line of Christ must have come in a way that is unusual.
and remember ‚Äúomnipotence‚ÄĚ does not mean that there are no limits to what an omnipotent being can do- God cannot lie (Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; 2 Timothy 2:13; Titus 1:2).
God can not learn-(OMNIscience)
God cannot be tempted by evil (James 1:13).
and too-God can't forgive the individual who will not repent and forsake his or her sin (Joshua 24:19; Proverbs 28:13; Matthew 6:15; 18:35; Luke 13:3,5).
God cannot teach the 'natural' man, of David's or Abraham's seed-- 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (Rom 8:7)
AND [URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=21906152345]]]tHE Blood shall never lose its POWER[/URL] because
[URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=10602123256]]]Christ's Blood is the Blood of the Godman[/URL]
[URL=http://www.rlhymersjr.com/Online_Sermons/09-22-02AM_CultsMcArthurAndTheBlood.html]]]Cults and the Blood[/URL] [ The material blood of Jesus was no more efficacious [effective, powerful] to cleanse from sin when it was shed upon "the accursed tree" than when it was flowing in his veins.
Who said that? Was it John MacArthur? Was it his teacher, Colonel Thieme? No! No! It was Mary Baker Eddy, the founder of the Christian Science cult! (cf. Mary Baker Eddy, Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures, 1910, p. 330). Mrs. Eddy was a neo-gnostic who believed that "Jesus, as material manhood, was not Christ" (Miscellaneous Writings, p. 84).
But our text corrects her error. The Lord's Supper shows that Jesus has a real Body. When we eat the bread we are reminded that His real Body actually died on the Cross. It was not a "Christ-Spirit" that died on the Cross. And it was the real flesh and bone Jesus that rose from the dead and ascended to Heaven (cf. Luke 24:39; Acts 1:10-11).
But the text also reminds us that He has real, material Blood:
"... This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me" I Cor 11:25. " ]
" feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." Acts 20:28
Scriptures showing descent from the fallen flesh of David/ Abraham would be a corruption of the Lord Jesus Christ
1 Cor. 15:44b "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adamwas made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
Rom 8:3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in theflesh " ...12..debtors, not to the flesh.."
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 1Pe 1:23 .. not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible..."
[URL=http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/mary-motherofjesus.html]]]Jesus was legally related to both parents -Taylor [/URL] Jesus was clearly legally related to both parents,PHYSICALLY born of Mary, with NO inherited genetic/sin defects . Would DJC49 say the courts in the U.S. are wrong, that say that these kids are descendants of THIS Adam's wife?... both physically and legally- [URL=http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=23372]]]Birth of twins, [/URL] "...Adam said, was an answer to prayer."
"Although Jesus grew in the womb of Mary, in the same manner as any baby, he was different from all other babies. .. Jesus was sinless, and one may reasonably assume without genetic flaw" "The LORD hath created a new thing in the earth"Jeremiah 31:22. Lk 1:35 "that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." To be a 'holy' thing, it can't have David's nature: Psa 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. " Fit to bring His Holy Blood to heaven- [URL=http://www.rlhymersjr.com/Online_Sermons/2005/081405AM_DayOfAtonement.html]]]CHRIST'S ETERNAL BLOOD [/URL]
[URL=http://www.rlhymersjr.com/Online_Sermons/2005/081405PM_DefenceOfDeHaanOnTheBlood.html]]]defending M.R.DeHaan on the Blood[/URL]
Ron Paul asked, in 2002, ‚ÄúAre we willing to bear the economic burden of a 100 billion dollar war against Iraq, with oil prices expected to skyrocket and further rattle an already shaky American economy? How about an estimated 30 year occupation of Iraq that some have deemed necessary to "build democracy"
On cost, according to estimates from the Congressional Research Service, we have already burned through around $550 billion in Iraq, at a rate of about $2 billion per week."
and this is the 'sharia law democracy' that we've paid for?????????
[URL=http://www.covenantnews.com/newswire/archives/046579.html]]]Fairytale of Iraq being worth the money[/URL]
[URL=http://www.covenantnews.com/abortion/archives/046982.html]]]To some evangelicals, Palin's viewpoint violates biblical teachings [/URL] October 02, 2008 Sarah Palin: `I'm a Feminist'; Pro-Sodomy Toleration
"Touted as a pro-family conservative, Sarah Palin‚Äôs record and testimony reveals that her policies are contrary to the Christian vision of the family. She is in favor of tax-payer subsidized contraceptive sex education for high school children. She is in favor of radical feminist and statist measures to apply Title IX feminist quota systems on the private sector. She mocks those who defend the Christian family model where women prioritize their roles as help meets and homemakers as ‚ÄúNeanderthals.‚ÄĚ She identifies herself as a feminist and praises pro-abortion feminist politicians for advancing the feminist agenda. As Governor, she vetoed pro-family legislation that would have prohibited homosexuals from getting special benefits, and she thus guaranteed special rights for homosexuals. In her interview with Katie Couric this week, Palin revealed that she is not a member of a church, she again called herself a feminist, and explained that she believes it is wrong to question homosexual behavior performed by adults."
and she's the best of the McCAIN/Biden/Obama group...
What's funny is the thread is derived from offense taken at Preacherjond mentioning to Jim Lincoln that the Blood of Christ should not be denied, as this is apostacy.
From here, the 'scholarship' only crowd has, in defending MacArthur, called Paisley, Cairns,Waite, the Bob Joneses etc. antichrists, in a link recommended by ml and DJC49 (they then recanted that aspect of the paper, while retaining the 'heretics' label of their paper, then, the current derived issues led to Henry M. Morris&ICR ,Paul S. Taylor & Christiananswers being called heretics by the 'scholarship only' side.
So this began with 'great offense' at daring to label a popular teacher as guilty of apostacy in an aspect of his teaching, as those mean old "KJVONLYs" are so wont to call names.
[URL=http://www.rlhymersjr.com/Online_Sermons/2005/071605PM_BengelvsMacArthur.html]]]DR. BENGEL VS. DR. MACARTHUR[/URL]
[URL=http://www.rlhymersjr.com/Articles/02-23-03AnsweringAPreacher.html]]]the Blood from Hymer's perspective[/URL]
[URL=http://www.rlhymersjr.com/Articles/02-16-03EternalBlood.html]]]CHRIST'S ETERNAL BLOOD- statements from CHRISTIAN LEADERS-from 347 AD on[/URL]
[URL=http://www.rlhymersjr.com/Online_Sermons/09-01-02PM_AnswerMcArthurLetter.html]]]Overview of Blood of Christ[/URL]
[URL=http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/mary-motherofjesus.html]]]Jesus was legally related to both parents -Taylor [/URL] Jesus was clearly legally related to both parents,PHYSICALLY born of Mary, with NO inherited genetic/sin defects . And returning to the analogy- these kids are descedants of Adam... it is true both physically and legally- [URL=http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=23372]]]Birth of twins, formerly frozen embryos[/URL] "Embryo adoption, Adam said, was an answer to prayer."
"Although Jesus grew in the womb of Mary, in the same manner as any baby, he was different from all other babies. It appears that he was not genetically related to either Mary or Joseph, for both had an inherited sin nature. Jesus was sinless, and one may reasonably assume without genetic flaw"
The Branch of the tree is a "new Thing" as seen in Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
The LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, a woman shall compass a man Jeremiah 31:22. not a corrupt branch
[URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=7807221931]]]501C3 Churches being Muzzled- good message on SA[/URL]
a growing movement to avoid this entanglement would make the protest here moot.
2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
[URL=http://www.biblebelievers.com/tetlow/queenofall01.html]]]Apparitions plan to unite all religions Under RCC [/URL] The Marian Apparitions plan to unite all religions under the Roman Catholic Church. Mary...Millions of Catholics travel to shrines to pray before her image. But what is not commonly known is that Muslims also hold her in high regard, and even among Hindus and Buddhists there is worship of goddesses that bear a striking resemblance to the Catholic Mary. Read chapter one of this new book.
[URL=http://www.themoorings.org/apologetics/prophecy/VirginBirth/Jerem.html]]] Prophecy about Messiah's birth[/URL] Jeremiah 31:15 "According to the New Testament, this oracle foresees Herod's slaughter of the infants in Bethlehem (Matt. 2:18). Bethlehem, near Ramah, was Rachel's burial place (Gen. 35:19). In the next verses, both before and after the prophecy in verse 22, Jeremiah assures the nation of Israel that although God is removing them from their homeland and making it desolate, someday He will in gracious condescension bring them back.
16 Thus saith the Lord; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the Lord; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy. 17 And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord, that thy children shall come again to their own border.
Jeremiah sets Israel's restoration in the future Messianic age Jeremiah 33:14-17 The prophecy would be fulfilled by a single descendant of David (v. 15). Who is the Branch, the descendant of David .. Verse 15 speaks of the conflict that would erupt at His birth, as Satan sought to swallow up the child. Verse 22 reveals the child's identity- to assure us" Satan fails. Lk 1:35
[URL=http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/4025/Brannon-Howse/By-Matt-Barber]]]SIGNS OF THE TIMES IN CALIFORNIA[/URL] ""It seems almost too fantastic to believe, but it's true. This Sunday, criminal activity and sexual perversion will once again fill San Francisco's public streets, with the shameful blessing of Mayor Gavin Newsom, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger," said Barber.
Barber continued, "During the Folsom Street Fair, hundreds, if not thousands, of fully nude men walk the public streets engaging in ************************* " These outrageous activities happen in broad daylight. Children are allowed to, and do, attend this event and are witness to this nudity and public sex. This is nothing short of child abuse. Where are the police, you ask? They're ordered to stand by and watch as this criminal activity occurs right in front of them. In the past, the San Francisco Police Department hosted a police recruiting booth at the event."
"Those who engage in this perversion - as well as Folsom Street organizers - are in clear violation of no less than three California state laws (Sections 311.6, 313 and 314 of the California Code) and perhaps more. Each violation is punishable by up to six months in jail.
[URL=http://townhall.com/columnists/MonaCharen/2008/09/30/acorn,_obama,_and_the_mortgage_mess]]]ACORN, Obama, and the Mortgage Mess - Mona Charen[/URL]
"The financial markets were teetering on the edge of an abyss last week. The secretary of the Treasury was literally on his knees begging the speaker of the House not to sabotage the bailout bill. The crash of falling banks made the earth tremble. The Republican presidential candidate suspended his campaign to deal with the crisis. And amid all this, the Democrats in Congress managed to find time to slip language into the bailout legislation that would provide a dandy little slush fund for ACORN.
ACORN stands for the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, a busy hive of left-wing agitation and "direct action" that claims chapters in 50 cities and 100,000 dues-paying members. ACORN is where Sixties leftovers who couldn't get tenure at universities wound up. That the bill-writing Democrats remembered their pet clients during such an emergency speaks volumes. This attempted gift to ACORN (stripped out of the bill after outraged howls from Republicans) demonstrates how little Democrats understand about what caused the mess we're in. "
Not too much exposure of this aspect of the mess, yet... interesting
Jesus, being born of Mary, was related legally (`as was supposed'-flagging this geneology as Mary's) to the first Adam. Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,..."
The Lord came to overcome death, "Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. " (Paisley, Cairns, Waite, Morris, etc. all point this out)
Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Henry Morris points out this parallel- Gen 5:1 the book of the generations of Adam. Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ
[URL=http://www.icr.org/article/4002/]]]the 2 Adams[/URL] "He must not inherit the sinful flesh of His human parents.."
[URL=http://www.prolifetraining.com/Articles/Five-Minute-Prolife.htm]]]How to DEFEND YOUR PRO-LIFE VIEWS IN 5 MINUTES OR LESS[/URL] SLED as a helpful reminder of these non-essential differences
Size: True, embryos are smaller than newborns and adults, but why is that relevant? Do we really want to say that large people are more valuable than small ones?
Level of development: True, embryos and fetuses are less developed than you and I. But again, why is this relevant? Four year-old girls are less developed than 14 year-old ones.Should older children have more rights than their younger siblings? Some people say that self-awareness makes one valuable. But if that is true, newborns do not qualify as valuable human beings.
Environment: Where you are has no bearing on who you are.Does your value change when you cross the street or roll over in bed? If not, how can a journey of eight inches down the birth-canal suddenly change the essential nature of the unborn from non-valuable tissue mass to valuable human being? If the unborn are not already human and valuable, merely changing their location can‚Äôt make them so.
Degree of Dependency: If viability bestows human value, then all those who depend on insulin or kidney medication are not valuable and we may kill them.
Jim Lincoln wrote: If one had done a DNA test back when Christ was in his ministry, it would show that he and Mary were physically related. [/URL]
This man's ministry to Moslems contradicts your DNA speculation, see - [URL=http://www.newgateministries.com/jerusalemchronicles/dna-of-jesus.html]]]DNA of Jesus Christ[/URL] "First, it says "...the Word was made flesh," but who,or what,is the Word? In John 1:1 it says In the beginning (before all time)was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ...How can God be with God and still be God? It is God the Son that is spoken of here. Secondly, it says "..the Word was made flesh." In other words, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, became a man. It is important to notice that the Word was "...made flesh." God prepared a body for Him as it says in Hebrews 10:5 "...a body hast thou prepared for me." Jesus Christ was begotten by God, not by man. It was supernatural." Thirdly, God the Son came, and "...dwelt among us." God Himself walked and lived among men. He ate, drank, slept with, and brought salvation to His own creation. And fourth, He was the glory of God, walking on this earth, healing the sick, casting out devils, walking on water, raising the dead..."