John UK wrote: And I for another. Now what's this about the calvinist's understanding of spiritual death being defective? How so? We've not even mentioned it yet. But alas, my time is out, and must away to the Land of Nod once again. But post it up bro, and in the morn I will have a look and see why you think the Frenchies have it all in a muddle.
I've touched on this in my previous posts. See for instances the following:
j3 wrote: Mike wrote: "If you see nakedness in a woman who wears pants, it is you who allows it... Nonsense: what I see is what is there. It is men like you who allow it, and women on a power trip who want it. I still want to know why I should have to avert my eyes in Church like I have to do in the world. You do work to avert your eyes in the world, don't you Mike?
What? Should one allow the eyes licence to do something in church which would not be allowed out of church?!!
I don't think for one moment that Mike is condoning scant clothing, but he is saying that if one has an unbeliever or immature/young Christian who does not understand the importance of modesty in dress and therefore dresses inappropriately, why should one allow their ignorance to become the occasion of sinning?
If one makes a covenant with ones eyes (Job 31.1) then that should be for every occasion, not just when it suits one's frame of mind!
Lurker wrote: Just have a minute during lunch to check in. Thank you both for your comments and I'll receive them in the spirit in which I know they were given. ..it is clear that we do not speak or understand the same biblical language. Therefore further "discussion" would not be profitable.
Lurker, please exercise a little patience with this uneducated barbarian. I for one am interested to know exactly what you were getting at. Care to have another go?
John, where to now? If the calvinist's understanding of spiritual "death" is defective, what of the philosophical premises that follow on from their view?
Lurker wrote: The wages of sin is indeed death. That said, if death always comes immediately upon sin then Paul's discourse in Romans 7 cannot be reconciled with your following statement: "Adam died the moment he disobeyed God!" or with the prophets for the "chief of sinners" was alive without the law until the commandment (law) came. My post was mostly scripture which I find relevant to the subject matter. I don't find biblical phrases like "ministration of death" and "death reigned" and the day Paul's transgressions were repaid (Deut 32:35)cryptic.
The sentence of death by God is death. Just because the sentence is not carried out for a while does not make it any the less "death".
Also, the word "death" does not carry a single uniform meaning in the Scriptures, which is what I think you are trying to impose on those passages you quoted.
Of the references you gave Romans 5 refers to physical death, Romans 7 refers to a moral death in the consciousness of Paul, and the reference to the "ministration of death" points to the legal dispensation, declaring that the keeping of the Law could not produce life!
So what may appear plain to you is not to me. Merely quoting scripture does not make it any plainer!
Lurker wrote: Adam died the moment he exited the garden setting foot on cursed ground. He sinned in the garden but it was not until he was exposed to the law that his sin was imputed working his death.(Romans 5:13) Outside the garden he came under the law of works which is the curse and death. Read the following passages taking careful note of the metaphors for they are consistent throughout the bible.
What about the wages of sin is death? Adam died the moment he disobeyed God! IOW the estrangement took place before he was kicked out of Eden.
Your post is very cryptic! Can you please explain?
John UK wrote: You got some Ryle? Where to, my good friend? On a website someplace? Oh he's a dear friend to me.
Oh a friend pointed me to him! I shall be reading more of Ryle, if his comments on other portions of God's word are equally good.
John UK wrote: Well anyway, this fits with text perfectly, as the day that Adam sinned, he became 1. immediately estranged from God, 2. commenced dying and 3. eventually died. But I sure believe he reached heaven, despite all that, and Eve too, for God lovingly made provision for them both, and surely redeemed them.
John UK wrote: Correct! So if I get the drift, you are saying that Adam became 'dead' to Father God, namely 'estranged from him' and that this is 'spiritual death' which is the result of sin. Yea or nay?
John UK wrote: No I've not ever thought very deeply on these words 'was dead, and is alive again', so maybe, just maybe, you'd care to explain them to me, please, and then I can tell you if you're right or not?
My suggestion is that the second part of the sentence explains the first viz. he was lost, and is found. He was estranged but is now at home etc.
What do you think?
J C Ryle says, "Let this expression be carefully noted. Though part of a parable, it is worthy of remark as our Lord's language in describing the life of the prodigal son before his repentance, and the change when he repented. The one state was death. The other was life."
John UK wrote: Now you've confused me bro. I don't know any FFF who believes that total depravity means that man is a bad as he could be. Now get back on topic or I'll award myself one of these for taking the first round. Still quiet 'round 'ere innit?
Yes, let's get back to the meaning of "death" in Genesis, before you get a little too smug. We'll return to the issue of depravity and the calvinistic understanding later.
John, have you ever considered the parable of the prodigal and why when the son returned the father says, "For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found"?
John UK wrote: Frenchie leanings???? Ha! Larf! How 'bout this one then? A direct quote from the psalm I mentioned: What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Romans 3:9-11 KJV Note: #1 ALL UNDER SIN - that's everybody. #2 None righteous #3 None understandeth #3 None seek God Unless you're not a Jew or a Gentile, that's your estate, ol' buddy. Now let's see you wriggle out of this one.
Ha! John, I think we're talking at cross purposes. The calvinistic notion I was referring to was that "depravity" means that man is as bad as he can be!
Perhaps I misunderstood what you were getting at. If so I apologize.
Michael Hranek wrote: John UK Quite a telling observation. Thanks Out of respect for my mother I am off to her Roman Catholic funeral.
Thinking and praying for you!
After the man and woman hid, God provided them with animal skins for a covering and the general consensus is that this was the introduction of the animal sacrificial system, which taught them that without the shedding of blood there is no remission. This along with the promise of a seed that would bruise the serpent's head indicated sufficiently the reconciling nature of God and I for one believe that our first parents did believe that promise, were reconciled and that we shall find them in heaven!
John UK wrote: How about: #1 ..And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. Genesis 3:8-10 KJV
The answer is in the text John: He was afraid!! It does not say anything about his desire to be separate!
John UK wrote: #2 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. Genesis 6:5-7 KJV
This is not said of Adam but the generation just before the flood! Even from the text one gets the impression that things went from bad to worse!
Your quotation from Ps. 14 is interesting because this is a typical calvinistic approach. BUT would you not say that that should have applied to everyone? And yet we read in v8 "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD"!!
I will need to pray more about this, my friend, as my head's in a spin. If spiritual 'death' is separation of the soul from God, then how is man to be reconciled to God, for he cannot do this himself, can he? When God communicated with Adam after his fall, he was not then reconciled, rather he was obviously estranged, and desired not reconciliation but separation. Surely this is mans' natural inclination, to remain separate from God, that he might go on in sin, which is his natural bent.
#1. Yes, there is "enmity" between man and God and as such reconciliation must be both ways. Read 2 Corinthians 5.18-20, which explains that God is now reconciled and that we must be reconciled to him. This is the essence of the Gospel ministry.
#2. There is also natural depravity. A love of sin.
#3. Adam was banished from Eden as a just punishment for his sin.
Where in Genesis do you read that:
a) he "desired not reconciliation but separation"?, or
b) that his "natural inclination" was "to remain separate from God, that he might go on in sin, which is his natural bent"?
John UK wrote: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof THOU shalt surely die. Genesis 2:17 KJV ..Now I don't normally turn to Adam C, but he reckons that the literal translation of "thou shalt surely die" can be "a death thou shalt die"; or, "dying thou shalt die". Now if this is true, it puts a whole new perspective on it, and makes me wonder again about this "death" of man.
There is no doubt that literal death is involved in the punishment of Adam's disobedience, and the phrase "dying thou shalt die" is a Hebraism which means you will surely die! Genesis 5 is a wonderful witness to the truth of God's word as we read again and again "and he died".
But there was a death that occured in the same day that they transgressed.
The difference between the IFBs and Reformed is not on the question of "death", but what that means. To the IFBs physical "death" means the separation of the soul from the body and spiritual "death" the separation of the soul from God. To the reformed it speaks of something that existed which is no longer, and the loss of which leads to complete inertia! That is the reason I brought in Is. 59, because it casts light on the issue at hand.
John UK wrote: ..Mind you, it would need a revelation from God to renew and open up the faculties again to respond to God's love in Christ, for without this quickening, man surely will not seek the Lord in the Lord's appointed way, for salvation? So grace is required before man will believe and repent, and this grace is only applied to some not to all. This is the teaching of the Lord Jesus, yes? Or is there a parting of the ways here?
The only "quickening" I know of is to life! IOW the same that leads to "regeneration" or the new birth.
The reformed folk speak of "regeneration" before faith. Is this what you are referring to? If it is, then I don't agree with you.
John UK wrote: I didn't say that I knew the answer, only that there's only one other option left.
Well John, I thought you were referring to my Isaiah reference. Oh well!
Do you want to tell us what you consider to be the "only other option left"?
Mike wrote: Makes you wonder how that spiritually dead Adam managed to communicate with God, doesn't it?
Mike, Probably the same way that Abraham heard God before he was said to believe God and it was counted "righteousness" to him! Or that Moses heard God when still an unbeliever, or that Saul of Tarsus met Christ on the road to Damascus when still dead in sins and tresspasses!!
Mike wrote: Makes you wonder how that spiritually dead Adam managed to communicate with God, doesn't it?
Now you've done it! Watch! The quotes will start flying in thick and fast!
John wrote: #1 Sure, okay they died, and they died the same day. 'Physically' does not come into it. #2 What is it to die spiritually? Well you can't kill a spirit, that is impossible, so that one's out. #3 There's only one left, you know.
John UK wrote: God told them that they would 'die', but what does 'die' mean? Maybe they didn't die at all? But if they 'did' die, then 'what' died?
God does not lie, and therefore that they did die should not be doubted by any Bible believing Christian.
They started to die physically and there was also spiritual death. But the issue to my mind is really what is it to die spiritually?
Those who see man as tri-partite say that the spirit within man died. Although most reformed folk do not agree with the tri-partite view, they nevertheless come to the same conclusion. And so spiritual death to them means the same as physical death. What the body cannot do as a result of death must now by analogy be transferred to man in the spiritual realm. All spiritual activity therefore should cease.
When one points to men and women "dead" in sins and tresspasses who still seek the spiritual, they can produce no good answer, but will resort to all sorts of philosophical nonsense, with quotes from their favorite authors, but with no biblical support.
Michael Hranek wrote: hidemi williges san francisco, ca Biblicist Tony Lopez-Cisneros Jim Lincoln Nebraska Mike New York Arthur Scotland Thank you all so much for praying. And for your encouraging words. My mother has died. I am a bit numb at the moment and all the emotion of it will probably hit me sometime later. But I wanted to tell you I so appreciate how when something so important is there and the salvation of our families is certainly that important we are able to put aside other things and pray for one another and people you haven't even met. Thank you. I greatly appreciate the prayers and that the Lord has given me opportunity to be with my family, knowing they do so need Jesus Christ and the salvation that is in Him alone. Thank you all again.
So sorry to hear the sad new. My deepest sympathy to you and your family Bro. Hranek!
May the Lord appear for you and supply all that is needed at this sad time.